Cavs’ first true test and what it will reveal about their big man future: Wine and Gold Talk podcast

Takeaways:

• The Cavs had a strong win against the Wizards, showcasing their depth.
• Donovan Mitchell’s performance was crucial, contributing significantly on both ends.
• Evan Mobley and Jarrett Allen are key players for the Cavs’ success and their roles against the Knicks will be monitored significantly.
• The upcoming game against the Knicks is an early litmus test for the Cavs.
• The Cavs’ offensive and defensive ratings are among the best in the league.
• Kenny Atkinson’s coaching strategies are evolving with the team.
• The rivalry with the Knicks adds intensity to the upcoming game.
• The Cavs need to capitalize on the Knicks’ injury struggles.

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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.

Ethan Sands

What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. It’s a solo-dolo episode of the pod, as I’m here with you on Sunday night, gearing up for the Cavs to go to New York and take on the New York Knicks. But first,

We gotta take a look in the rear view mirror and see what the Cavs were able to accomplish against the Wizards and where they can improve. talking about the Cavs 135-116 win over the Washington Wizards, where they saw a little bit of difficulty to start the game, right? The Cavs were without, the Cavs did not have Donovan Mitchell at his best to start the game, but Donovan, as he does, is able to take over

in certain situations and at the end of the game that’s exactly what he did. Donovan ended with 30 points, he ended with five assists and four steals. So we’ve been talking about him being able to get his work in on the defensive end as well and how we’ve talked about how Donovan has been able to make an impact on the offensive and defensive end this year, especially when he’s working in the passing lanes along with Dean Wade, Evan Mobley and Jarrett Allen.

But the players that did also make an impact, right? We’ve talked about how spread out this offense is. This is a team that had seven different players in double figures, right? Evan Mobley went for his first double-double of the season, 13 and 13. Then you have Jarrett Allen, who had an amazing game. He legitimately was perfect. 23 points on 10 of 10 shooting.

3 of 4 from the free throw line, we’re going to forget about that one miss. And then the 5 rebounds as well. That’s something that we want to see tick up even though he’s had an uptick in his offensive presence. But I think that we have known him to be a double-double machine and that’s going to be a reason why we see him in this next series be used at a higher capacity than we have in the past. Then Darius Garland also had 23 points and 5 assists. Some of those passes were just

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dimes right he had four or five from three point range getting in those clips and showing that he is not afraid to shoot from the beyond the arc we want those numbers to get up a little bit more but when he’s shooting that efficiently you can’t even really get too mad about it then you look at the bench numbers caris the vert 10 points ty gerome 14 points and sam money marrow 11 points somebody that we’ve been waiting to see if he can come out from the rubble with his

injured wrist that he’s been still battling through and on on Saturday it was shown how much he can affect the game not only on the offensive end but he ended the game with a plus minus of plus 12 showing how much he can impact the game with taking eyes away from other defenders and also just being able to grow as a defensive player he’s gotten a lot stronger he’s being used and picking roles by Kenny Atkinson it’s a different role for Sam he’s fitting in really

nicely. We know that Kenny Atkinson talked before the season about even though Sam wasn’t able to play in a majority of the preseason games, he still said that he had confidence in what he’d already seen, especially because Sam Merrill was one of the first people to show up to training camp for the Cavs and even earlier into the summer.

The beauty of the Cavs new offense that had 7 players score in double figures on Saturday is that they are no longer relying on Donovan Mitchell to score at will while watching as spectators. This not only takes the burden off of Mitchell, but it also helps him… This not only takes the burden off Donovan,

but it allows him more space as the opposing teams become more wary of other players shooting and playmaking. The lessened scoring load also gives Donovan more energy to put out on the defensive end that he showed off on Saturday with 4 steals.

One thing the Cavs did well against the Wizards, they didn’t allow one player on the opposing team’s success to wreck the game. Something we talked about after the Pissons game, where Cade Cunningham dropped 30 +, but they held many other players in check. Against the Wizards, the Cavs forced all of their players to take tough shots down the stretch, especially as they held their starting lineup outside of Bilal, under 50 % shooting from the field and held Kyle Kuzma, who was a main target for them, to a poor 3 of 16 from the field.

But I want to keep talking about Donovan Mitchell a little bit about how he’s been able to impact the game, obviously, but he’s still the alpha.

This is a guy who is sharing the wealth religiously. Evan Mobley is getting an uptick in usage rate. You also have Darius Garland who knows he needs to get up to those numbers. If you have guys like Donovan, Darius, and Evan, or Jarrett Allen on a nightly basis scoring 20 apiece, it’s going to be a hard team to beat. It’s team that is working together to create offensive looks for themselves.

but also in these new offensive sets by Kenny Atkinson, there’s so much space. And Darius Garland has preached on this after games about how much he’s been able to use and move in Ty Jerome as well, because they’re using each other and one another to make space and create different opportunities along the way. Not even just in pick and rolls, but also just motion offense, continuously moving, and the importance of other different schemes, talking about inverted pick and rolls.

Ethan Sands (04:43.954)

talking about big on big screens, talking about pin downs and things of that nature, right? Those are different tactics that we’re gonna get into a little bit later on this podcast when we talk about the Knicks game, because I think that’s gonna be very, very important. But a little bit of news for you today about something that is a little bit away from basketball, right? After a back to back and before heading to New York to play the Knicks on Monday,

Donovan Mitchell stopped by his old stomping grounds, Greenwich Country Day School, for two momentous occasions. His jersey was retired and he attended the ribbon cutting ceremony as he opened a 53,596 foot athletic facility next to his old campus. The one that his mom taught at for 13 years, I believe it was, and the construction

for this athletic facility began in September of 2023, right? So this is something that Donovan has mentioned in a video and has mentioned beforehand that this is something that he’s really, really into. It was a dream of his to give back not only to his community, but his old schools, a place that he really got a sense of education, right? And that’s also why he’s dealing with and partnered with.

the prisoner wine company, which also helped give $25,000 to higher education and prison reform earlier this summer. So I think it’s important to not only tell you a little bit about why he did this, but what it is, right? The facility is named the Determination Over Negativity Family Athletic Center, or the Don for short. The facility…

houses a full-size NCAA basketball court that has Donovan’s signature on the court and can be divided in half to create two full high school sized courts running perpendicular. So the building will also be large enough to host all school events and assemblies. So this is something that’s a big just for the school itself because they said that because they’re gonna use it for their winter

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Assemblies Thanksgiving Day when they’re gathering all the stuff that they do for their community. It’s a different space is a bigger space to be able to do all these different things. And obviously we know Donovan is a community based fan, community based man and giving back at something that we’ve known him to do. It feels like this has been the summer of partnerships for Donovan Mitchell, right? Because we know that he’s got his new shoes. We understand that he’s been able to.

go to different facilities and he got to obviously the wine partnership that I mentioned a little bit earlier. But now I want to go, obviously this is important to Donovan, but something that might be even more important to Donovan Mitchell is beating the New York Knicks, right? And they want to go and dish out a different kind of lesson against the revamped Knicks on Monday night. So I want to tell you a little bit more about

the Knicks this season and how they have changed not only their offensive approach, but also what they’re dealing with to start the season. So the Knicks are without Precious and Mitchell Robinson, who underwent ankle surgery earlier this year. And they still found a way to beat the Indiana Pacers, who we all know are a contender in the Eastern Conference. They beat them 123 to 98. The biggest thing from this win from the Knicks that I wanted to touch on

was the fact that Tyrese Halliburton was held scoreless. He was 0 of 8 from the field and 0 of 7 with just one turnover but five assists, right? So he was held scoreless against a Knicks team that is not only becoming known for their offensive and spread out offense, not only becoming known for their spread out offense,

but they are also becoming better versed in defense all around. Obviously we understand that OG and Inobi is a great point of attack defender, but this also goes to show that the New York Knicks who faced off against the Boston Celtics in their first game of the season, that didn’t go well for them, but they also have this spread lineup where their entire starting five were in double figure against the Indiana Pacers. So, Mikhail Bridges.

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Finally got his shot to get going. I know I talked about that a couple days ago about how his shot looked very different from what it had been in the past and also just didn’t look like it was working for him. I didn’t get a chance to watch this game in depth, but I do believe that he probably I do believe that he’s getting more comfortable or might have switched back to his old shot slightly. So he had 21 points. He was 8 of 12 from the field and 2 of 3 from three point range.

Then you got OGN and OB, we know he’s more known for his defensive approach, but he had 14 points, six of 12 from the field, one of four from three point range. Then you got Carl Anthony Tabbers, who was 21 points, five of 11 from field, and two of two from three point range, while also getting to the line a total of 10 times, making nine of those baskets. And then you got Jaylen Brunson, the star of the show, 26 points, 10 of 19, three of five, and three of.

3 of 5 from the 3 point range and 10 of 19 from the field. And Josh Hart even got 20 points. You know it’s going to be a hard night for any team when Josh Hart gets going offensively because he’s more of an energy player than anything else. He had a plus minus of plus 35. Jalen Brunson also had a plus minus of plus 36. But Josh Hart added 20 points while going 8 of 15 and 1 of 6 from the 3 point range. So like.

Dealing with Josh Hart is going to be something that I wanted to touch on a little bit when it comes to the Cavs game, especially with how they just act against a guy like Josh Hart who is no… Okay, take that out. Okay.

Ethan Sands (11:05.286)

And although the Cavs have, and although this is the first real test for the Cavs after the Knicks have already flipped, this is the first real test for the Cavs, right? The New York Knicks at Madison Square Garden. And this is a coming after three straight wins against teams that they should legitimately beat. And they did by double digits each time. That’s exactly what we wanted to see from this Cavs team. And they went and beat the Bums. Okay, can’t say that.

Ethan Sands (11:38.354)

This is the first real test for the Cavs, right? This is a team that has…

Ethan Sands (11:45.426)

This is the first real test for the Cavs. This is a team that got to face three of the worst teams in the Eastern Conference to start the season. And they took advantage of that as they should, right? You have to beat the teams that you gotta beat to get an advantage going into the first early part of the season. But they now have this test against the New York Knicks who have played it. Like I said, the Boston Celtics, Indiana Pacers. So I think it’s gonna be interesting.

Especially when you talk about the advantages and the disadvantages the Cavs may face against the Knicks, right? And I think this is going to be a big game to decipher where the Cavs feel, the front office and fans when it comes to the two big lineup and how this could provide a preview and how this could provide a preview being had by…

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and how this could be preview for something that could come down the line, talking about potentially moving Jarrett Allen to get Evan Mobley to be the full-time five. But that only happens if the Cavs are not able to be successful against the Knicks in a game where the Knicks are without a true center, as Karl Anthony Towns is more of a stretch four, obviously one of the most prolific three-point shooters for a seven-footer.

in league history, at least in the last decade. And I think it’s safe to say that Evan Mobley is the better guard when it comes to guarding Carlson in town rather than Jarrett Allen because of how he can switch and how he can spread the floor. And I think Evan Mobley will be given that task. But if you do that, right, the question then becomes who do you have Jarrett Allen guard? Do you have Jarrett Allen guard?

Josh Hart, who’s not really known as a perimeter threat, giving him the opportunity to stay with him and show off what he’s able to do versatility wise on the defensive end? Or do you have him stick with somebody like OJN and Oluf, who’s also known not for his three point shot, but also what he’s able to do in interior of the painted area and things of that nature? For me, this is something the defensive approach is going to be.

how the Cavs show off what they’ve already known to be as their defensive identity.

The other piece to this is the option for Kenny Atkinson to go away from Jarrett Allen for an extended period in the game against the Knicks, right? You could, you have seen a lot already this season that Evan Mobley has played not only more minutes, but more minutes without Jarrett Allen on the court. So splitting the minutes of Evan Mobley and Jarrett Allen has already been on the mind of Kenny Atkinson. But in this game against the Knicks, where there might be a mismatch,

when it comes to speed, it comes to quickness, for whoever the Cavs may have Jarrett Allen guard, the option to go to Evan Mobley and Dean Wade as the four and five for a lineup might be the best option for the Cavs to have success on the defensive end, even though Jarrett Allen is one of the best rim protecting bigs in the NBA. It’s confusing only because of

the importance of having Evan Mobley be able to guard Carl Anthony Towns, seeing how he can stretch the floor, how Evan Mobley is able to play on the perimeter when it comes to defense, and that matchup. This is why, this is something, that’s why this is game that I had circled going in when it comes to trying to figure out.

how the Cavs will use Jarrett Allen and Evan Mobley in the future against teams like this that have a five out lineup and that have guys that are not particularly playing in the paint as much.

And like I said earlier, that’s why this could be a preview of what is to come in the future or if the Cavs move Evan Mobley to the full time five. I’m not saying that I think that that is a for sure thing or even a great idea based on how the twin towers is able to impact defenses and on offense with the vertical spacing and also with how they protect the rim together. I think that’s a dynamic duo and I think Kenny Atkinson is good.

And I think Kenny Atkinson is the person after coaching Draymond Green and Kevon Looney, this is the coach. Kenny Atkinson is the guy to be able to tap into both of these players. It’s just gonna be interesting on Monday night to see how he goes about it when it comes to the pairing of Jarrett Allen and Evan Mobley against a smaller lineup of the Knicks.

The Cavs have been able to do their thing to start the season. They have the second best offensive rating behind the Boston Celtics. The Cavs have an offensive rating of 125.5 and they have the fourth best defensive rating in the NBA to start the season, 105.2. So,

do the math, right? They have the second best net rating when it comes to the start of the season through three games, 20.3. This is something that the Cavs want to continue, right? It might not be at the same proficiency as being the second offensive rated team in the league, but that’s the goal. They wanna improve the offense. They know that the defense is gonna be there. So for me, how will Kenny Atkinson attack?

Ethan Sands (14:58.526)

the Knicks defense, right? That is something that I am curious of and want to see what he will put together. Will he use Evan Mobley still at the point of attack if they got somebody like OGN and Noby guarding him rather than having Carl Anthony Towns? Carl Anthony Towns more than likely will be forced to guard Jarrett Allen size-wise on the defense of I just think it’s interesting because if OGN and Noby is guarding

Evan Mobley. And I think the best way for the Cavs to go about that would be to set up inverted pick and rolls. So somebody smaller, a guard setting a screen for Evan Mobley to get him open, but also for a pick and pop situation. That’s something that Donovan Mitchell and Darius Garland, particularly Donovan, particularly Darius Garland, were working together with Evan during practice, a recent practice. It was something that

you wanted to see from the two, especially knowing that Kenny Atkinson, to start the season, has paired Donovan Mitchell with Evan Mobley more heavily than was done last year. It’s something that we’ve always wanted to see when it comes to the pairing, but this makes sense, right? Because Kenny Atkinson wants to not only continue to give Evan Mobley the usage rate, which is higher this season than it was last, then when Donovan has the ball,

He knows how to be able to create for his teammates and also knows when other players need to sign. Darius Garland is a little more triple happy, still figuring out his place in that order, in that lineup. And for me, when it comes to the big on big screens, I think that’ll create mismatches when it comes to vertical spacing because of how the lobs will work against a smaller defender, whoever ends up guarding Jarrett Allen or

or Evan Mobley because you get the vertical spacing of the passing. We saw Jarrett Allen dish out a great pass to Darius Garland the other day. So you want to continue to see these guys improve on their facilitation ability and orchestrating the offense, especially if they’re going to be at the top of the key running plays with the offense running through them under Kenny Atkinson. It’s something that has been poked at a little bit and I think will continue to be looked at throughout this season. But

Ethan Sands (17:24.154)

As I’ve been talking about it, this is the first true test for the Cleveland Cavaliers against the New York Knicks. It’s something that we’ve been waiting to see because the Cavs have ran through other defenses and have shown that they have improved against teams that they should be, right? They’re taking their foot and putting it on the gas and not letting up. And I liked how Kenny Atkinson, even against the Wizards, was keeping his guys in on a back-to-back.

Just to get them the cardio and the endurance that they’re gonna need going into later into the season Because I believe the calves have 15 back-to-backs see the 14 or 15 back-to-backs on their schedule So it’s gonna be a regular thing for the calves that have to deal with and they won’t want to Have to play with minimal Minimal efficiency if they have all of these continuously, so I think Kenny Atkinson is

not only planning for now and trying to get his guys into a rhythm, but also planning for the future and showing them what they’re going to have to go through to get these wins, right? Obviously there’s another back to back this coming week with Orlando on Friday and the Bucs on Saturday. It’s something that is going to test this Cavs team because like I said, like I’ve been saying, the New York Knicks is the first test, but it’s a trial run.

for what is to come for the rest of the week, right? You have the Lakers coming to Cleveland on Wednesday. That’s not only going to be an emotional game, but it’s going to be a game against a Western Congress opponent that to this day to today is still undefeated as well. And under JJ Redick has a completely different offensive lineup, offensive set schemes and things that are having them play even with a similar roster to a completely different level.

Something that Kenny Atkinson is also trying to do with this Cavs team that brought back 13 of the 14 guys they had on their roster last year. And then, like I said, on Friday, you got the Orlando Magic, an up and coming team, another defensively heavy team who also have Paolo Bencaro, Franz Wagner. And I think the Cavs are definitely have that game circled on their calendar as they go ahead and try and see how they fare against the team that

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took them to seven games in the first round of the playoffs last year. And then obviously you traveled to Milwaukee and faced the Bucs. The Bucs have been an interesting story this season only because they’ve lost two games against teams that they should beat. One, two, and these are not games without Gianna Santatecumpo, Damian Lillard. Like they’ve had both of their stars and still have not played to the level that they wanted to. I think this is just.

Looking at the Eastern Conference, right? Obviously you want to bank wins when you can against teams that you need to beat. But the Bucks lost to the Brooklyn Nets 115 to 102 the other day, and they lost to the Chicago Bulls 133 to 122. there is, obviously, like Chris says, it’s the NBA, nothing is impossible, but you need to take advantage of teams faltering and the Cavs and

want to do that again, not only against a team that has fallen a couple of times, but also teams that are riddled with injuries, right? The depth of the New York Knicks is a problem for them to start the season, right? This is a team that is

Ethan Sands (21:04.378)

I even Josh Hart is day to day with a recent injury update.

Ethan Sands (21:19.654)

And even Josh Hart is a… And even Josh Hart was added to the injury report for the Knicks. So they need to take advantage of that, right? He has a right ankle impingement. Miles McBride, also day to day. And then Kevin McCullar Jr., Precious Achua, Precious and Mitchell Robinson out. Like, this is a game that is winnable for the Cavs against a team that…

They still have history against, right? This is a team that bounced them from the first round of the Eastern Conference playoffs in 2023. They still got a little bit of a rivalry. is probably one of the…

Ethan Sands (22:06.728)

And this is a rivalry game to an extent, right? This is a game against the New York Knicks, the team that bounced them for the first round of the Eastern Conference playoffs in 2023, a conversation that was needed, a game, a series that was needed to make changes in this organization to show them that if they wanted to make the next step, they had to go get different players. Max Struths, George Nieng are two of the main ones.

and also finding Sam Mero was a gem as well, right? I think for the Cavs to continue to go in the right direction, to continue this undefeated streak with players being on the injury list for the Knicks, Josh Hart, questionable with the right ankle impingement, Mitchell Robinson, precious, both out. Their depth is going to be challenged against the Cavs, a team that is known for its depth, known to be playing 10 players currently.

When Max Struess returns from being injured himself, will more than likely be 11 guys being played on a daily basis. So I think this is not only a training ground, it’s not only an early litmus test, but is a point to prove for the Cavs that they can be a contender in the Eastern Conference and not taking any team lightly, but taking advantage of places where they have mismatches or advantageous situations. And

The Cavs in a week where they tough matchups for the entire week, this is a great way to start the week. It’s a game that they have.

Ethan Sands (24:29.214)

But the Cavs will look to start their tough week on a high note and especially going into Madison Square Garden. We all know the environment that is going to come, the expectation that is going to be on this game, and how hard the Cavs and Donovan Mitchell, like I was trying to say earlier, are going to go at it when it comes to Monday night’s contest. But with that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember,

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