Who is Ohio State football’s most valuable player? Buckeye Talk podcast

Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.Stephen Means (00:12.484)

Welcome back to Buckeye Talk, I’m Stephen Means, that’s Tiffan Kreisnick, and that’s Andrew Gillis, and this is your Thursday Big Top It Pod, and we’re doing something interesting. We’re talking about value. The value of a football player. The value of a touchdown. The value of a field goal. The value of you listening to this pod, and getting the text, 614-350-3315. It’s a two week free trial, and it’s 399 after that. It get more valuable than that. There’s no more value than a two week free trial, and then 399.

for information, for analysis, for everything you could possibly ever need from an Ohio State football team right there in your little cell phone. You got a little look for it. It comes to you, 614-350-3315. That’s not what we’re doing today. We’re not just gonna spend the next hour and a half telling you how valuable tech service is. Though I could do it. I think I could get to minute 50 before I would find, run out of ways to tell people about the tech service. I believe that I could do that if I put my mind to it. But that’s not what I’m gonna do.

We’re going to rank the nine most valuable players in Ohio State football roster as it heads into pivotal, pivotal, pivotal, pivotal. I don’t know why I keep saying pivotable. It’s because I just got off a call with somebody else and we were talking about pivot lists and stuff. Pivotal November, not necessarily because of the schedule, because the schedule is not, you know, the toughest thing in the world. Right. I mean, they play Purdue this weekend and Northwestern the weekend after that. Indiana will be pretty difficult.

And then Michigan is more of a mental hurdle, I feel like, an actual on the field hurdle, because it’s your rival. But it’s it’s a month per Ohio State, can solidify some things here. And so how we’re doing this is it’s available players. If they are out for the season and we have been told they are out for the season, they cannot be a part of this conversation. So Josh Simmons, TC Caffey, Court Williams, who is out for his career. He’s medically retired. We can’t list them on this list.

And I’m wondering how much that impacted some of the guys who will be on this list and where they might be versus where they would have been had we done this in September. But guys like Zen Maholsky, who we are expecting to return at some point, even if it’s not this week, and Will Kazmeric, tied in, we’re expecting him to come back at some point this season, even if it’s not necessarily this week. They can be part of this discussion. So if you wanna throw either one of those names in your top nine as we’re having this discussion, by all means,

Stephen Means (02:39.418)

Have at it. asked our textures. That’s why I was promoting it. That’s not why I promoted it. I wrote it because it’s great. But I asked our textures to come along with this. I asked them for the top three and what we ended up with is 14 different players getting a least at least one vote. And we got seven of those 14 at least getting one first place vote. And I know in the past when we’ve ranked things, we’ve done the draft style. I think people have liked the

just kind of free flowing, let’s have a discussion and come to a consensus list style versus like the draft. I think the draft style is great when you’re trying to win something. It’s not always great when you’re trying to have a real discussion. So let’s have a real discussion about this and we’ll let the, the textures lead, lead it in terms of how we go one through nine, but then we’ll kind of move around. Stefan, who do you think was number one amongst the textures?

Stefan Krajisnik (03:34.199)

Among texters probably Our texters no ball Probably Donovan Jackson

Stephen Means (03:51.278)

You came close, but he’s not number one. He did get a good amount of first place votes though. Andrew, I’ll let you take a guess next.

Andrew (04:00.486)

I think it’s probably someone else who’s probably pretty high, Will Howard. would say Howard was number one.

Stephen Means (04:07.48)

That too is a great guess, but it’s not the right guess.

Andrew (04:13.21)

That’s interesting. Not Jackson or Howard. Okay, that’s fascinating.

Stephen Means (04:16.62)

No, no, no. Yes, you can, Stefan. I think you know who it is. That’s why I’m gonna let you take this educated guess. Not saying the other two weren’t, because you guys were, seriously, you guys were not far off. But I think you know where we’re going with this, so go ahead. Ooh, 35 tackles, five and a half tackles for loss, a half sack, three pass breakups. And as of right now, he is second amongst players.

Stefan Krajisnik (04:18.327)

Can I take one more guess?

Stefan Krajisnik (04:33.23)

Is it Caleb Downs?

Stephen Means (04:46.458)

who have played at least 150 snaps defensively in PFF grade with an 86.5. His coverage so far this year, 17 targets. He’s allowed 12 receptions for only 102 yards. None of them have been for touchdowns. It is the former five-star recruit, the former second team Consensus All-American, Alabama leader in safeties. Yes, sir, it is Mr.

Caleb Downs. I’m assuming you guys are shocked that Ohio State’s transfer safety is number one on the, I don’t think you guys are shocked that he’s in the top three, but I am assuming you guys are shocked that he was number one. And by the way, he also had the most first place votes. So he was consensus number one. wasn’t a deep, there’s a, it’s a little gap between him and number two, significant gap between number two and number three.

And then like a little gap between three and number four, and then there’s just a barrage of different names there. But I’m assuming Andrew, you’re a little shocked that Caleb Downs is number one.

Andrew (05:46.895)

Yeah.

Andrew (05:51.704)

Yeah, look, Caleb Downs, so Caleb Downs for me was a medalist, right? Like he was, he was on the podium. I just, to be completely real with you, like he was pretty clearly separate from at least, I’ll say at least one or two of them to give some allure there. But yeah, I, I did not have Caleb Downs really in consideration for number one. So I am interested that the textures

Stephen Means (05:57.347)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew (06:20.858)

Kind of had him in that spot. Now, perhaps we can get into why I didn’t have him number one or number two, but I do think that, you know, there’s perhaps another player on this list that, might make that easier. But yeah, I, I’m pretty surprised. I figured this was going to be kind of a slam dunk one too, and it was not so interested.

Stephen Means (06:44.164)

So,

Stefan Krajisnik (06:44.366)

Yeah, I’m in the same boat. thought one and two would be kind of consensus and then we’d figure it out from there. So I’m a little surprised by that.

Stephen Means (06:53.114)

Okay, two and three then, because that’s how we’re gonna do, obviously three different segments, one through three through four through six, seven through nine, I hope. The way that, I hope this goes. But I don’t know, once you get past, I think four, the groupings get real tight. So maybe it won’t go as smooth once you get to five through nine. But I think the consensus right now is you guys have in whatever order,

Donovan Jackson, Caleb Downs, Howard, in whatever order you have them on your list. I’m assuming that’s what it is. And Andrew, by the way, you’re talking Jackson and Howard are one and two in some order. And Downs is a medalist to your point, but it’s like a, we know who the top two teams are in the country. And this is just like the, you know, they played in the gold, the bronze medal game.

Andrew (07:37.744)

Sure, exactly.

Andrew (07:43.398)

Yeah, Caleb Downs, while not as much of a blowout, Caleb Downs is very much like TCU in this regard, where you start to look at it go, okay, maybe there’s a better one, two here than just that guy. So yeah, I’m a little surprised. I’m not gonna lie to you.

Stephen Means (07:49.506)

Yeah.

Stephen Means (08:00.716)

Is Jackson one for both of you? Okay, okay. And okay, that’s fitting. And I don’t think that’s a bad choice. but, so Stefan, I’m assuming Will Howard is number two, is number one for you. Okay. So then I’ll, I’ll be the textures champion and you guys can be Donovan Jackson’s and Caleb Downs champion because I was with you as I was counting this stuff. was like, really? Cause he, when I first started counting,

Andrew (08:11.099)

Yes.

Stephen Means (08:29.848)

He kind of built up a lead pretty quickly. Just how I was, just because I started from the first texture and just worked my way through it. And I’m like, really?

Andrew (08:37.126)

I thought you were gonna say started from the first texter now we hear that was such a great line that you just missed

Stephen Means (08:40.834)

Yeah, know I know I was just like really though as it kept going I’m like And then what happened was will Howard finish second He also was second amongst first place votes Donovan Jackson finished third and was third amongst first place. But as I mentioned Caleb downs Their lead between Caleb and Will Howard was almost like a Basketball game that was close the entire game and then you start fouling at the end. It’s all of a sudden the final score is my life

Seven or eight points when the game was played in a three-point bubble the entire game while with Donovan Jackson There’s like a decent gap like he was the way Andrew’s talking about how Caleb Downs was clearly third Donovan Jackson was clearly third for the Texers and so I think What happened here is this? Well first actually let’s let you guys make your case Andrew why is Donovan Jackson clearly number one for you

Andrew (09:41.062)

So if you guys can imagine like a cartoon where you like see like a dam start to break and all of a sudden you have this person in front of it just like moving their hands really fast trying to patch every hole, that’s kind of Donovan Jackson right now. Donovan Jackson was this team’s left guard. Obviously, I don’t know if we’re gonna sit here and say that Donovan Jackson was an all American left guard.

I don’t think we’re going to sit here and say, know, Donovan Jackson is, know, like that Zach Frazier type, you know, the center at West Virginia where all he’s just one of those rare interior lineman, a Brandon sheriff, those rare interior lineman that go early in NFL drafts. I don’t think we were there with Jackson, but I don’t think anyone was necessarily looking at Jackson going, he’s playing poorly. I don’t think he was playing necessarily amazing. I don’t think he was bad though.

Then you kick him out to left tackle because your tackle situation disintegrates and he kind of plays savior here because what happens if Donovan Jackson is not around, whether he, you can’t play him at tackle because he’s not just equipped to handle the position or he’s injured or whatever. You’re starting a guy who has not really ever played a meaningful snap for you at tack.

Or perhaps ever. And that’s your tackle situation. So I think what I want people to understand about the Donovan Jackson argument is this is not like you said, Steven, a conversation about who’s best at their job, because I don’t think that Donovan Jackson is a first round tackle or a first round guard or anything like that. It’s just the versatility that he provides you at a position.

where you would be extremely in trouble if he did not exist or extremely in trouble. If he could not do that. I think that that’s a difference because to me, the offensive line, we talked about it going into the Penn State game, and I don’t think those concerns have necessarily gone away. The offensive line is kind of a load bearing wall here for the rest of this season, right? For this offense, because if the offensive line collapses, I think you could make a case that really nobody else on this list matters because

Andrew (11:54.468)

We’re going to talk about Will Howard here in a minute. What does it matter for Will Howard or the running backs or whoever if the offensive line is given up four sacks a game and they’re getting no push up front. You just needed some kind of competency there. I think Ohio State got it with Donovan Jackson and the fact that he’s able to just kind of spread out a little bit and play both positions if need be. That’s incredibly valuable.

Stephen Means (12:20.346)

So Donovan Jackson has played 354 snaps this season. 286 of them have obviously been at left guard where he started the year at and to your point about him being an All-American, Andrew, and whether he is or not, there’s some people who think he was, he is, right? And there’s some people, I mean, he was a preseason All-American. I think I had him as a preseason All-American, I think, I don’t remember. It’s been two months now and so much has happened in the last two months. I so much has happened in the past 48 hours, but so much has happened definitely in the past two months here.

There are some people who think he’s an all-American guard. might be a day to pick 286 at left guard, 68 at left tackle. Four of those obviously came in an emergency situation against Nebraska and the other 68, excuse me, the other 64 came against Penn State when he started at left tackle. So far this season, he’s given up eight pressures. He gave up as many pressures against Penn State for, as he did in all the other games combined this year.

He had given up three hurries coming into the Penn State game. gave up two. He’s only given up one QB hit and that was against Michigan State. And he hadn’t given up a sack before the Penn State game, but obviously different position, right? Left tackle giving up sack is a little bit more likely than a left guard giving up a sack. So it’s a little bit different. So I’m not pointing out those numbers and say, he’s worse as a left tackle than he is as a left guard. Well, we know that already, which is why he’s been a left guard.

I think the case there for you is, what else you got? And it’s not a bad case. That’s in fact his entire case right now, because I don’t think you’re making this argument. I am not all the way sure Donovan Jackson is on the list. If Josh Simmons doesn’t get hurt. I’m not saying he’s not on the list. In fact, I think he still might be on the list because it’s like, we didn’t know what we know about Carson Hinsman now.

And Austin Serra that had been fine, but it wasn’t, I still think there is a decent drop off between him and Donald Jackson, but I think you can at least make the case that maybe he’s not on the list. So Josh Simmons, it’s almost a case to Josh Simmons about this is how valuable he is. That you lost him and a guy who may or may not be on the list. One of us is making the case that he should be number one. That’s how valuable Josh Simmons was.

Andrew (14:27.493)

Yes.

Andrew (14:37.658)

Well, so just real quick, think if we had done this list before the season or before the Oregon game, think Josh Simmons is number one. Yeah. So I think Donovan Jackson is just kind of taking his place in that.

Stephen Means (14:41.54)

Feed me number one.

with me now.

Yeah, he’d be number one. And if you didn’t have him number one is cause like you do have to take a step back and think about it for two seconds. I will agree with that because Josh Simmons, I don’t think is one of the 10 best players on this team, everybody healthy. And so if he’s not one of the 10 best players and you’re already a little iffy about the offensive line, what does that mean for value? But yeah, he’s 100%. So that’s, that’s the case for Donovan Jackson. It’s like, it’s him or to nothing.

Stefan, it is now your turn to make the case for Will Howard and why he should be number one on this list.

Stefan Krajisnik (15:25.718)

The case for Will Howard is that it’s November and he’s been in this team starting quarterback all season and our August discussions of, you know, could, could Devon Brown, you know, be a quality backup? Could Julian Sane be a quality backup? What, what, what do you have at quarterback? It’s such a deep room. It’s November making a change at quarterback would not be as seamless as we think it would be. If Devon Brown had to step in and be this team starting quarterback, I don’t think it’s very seamless. This is not.

Stephen Means (15:30.522)

Woo!

Stefan Krajisnik (15:54.714)

This is not 2014 as much as as much as that gets brought up, you know, in various conversations when you’re talking about, you know, why a player needs to be ready to go in any given situation. Will Howard has been. The reason or I won’t say the reason, but a massive reason why this offense has taken a step forward and been one of the best offenses in the country this year. This I agree with Andrew that Donovan Jackson is definitely the conversation that, you know, if he goes down, what do you do there?

The offensive line against Nebraska was not good and Will Howard was 13 of 16 with 221 yards, three touchdowns and interception. He’s a quarterback that can make things work even when things in front of him aren’t stable, when they’re shaky. And I don’t know if you have that with Devin Brown or Julian Sayen right now. Now, if they had been the starting quarterback in August 31st against Akron, if Julian Sayen or Devin Brown was starting, I feel pretty confident that either of them would be pretty good at this point of the season and would be fine.

or even next year if we’re having the quarterback conversation. But it’s November and Will Howard has been your starting quarterback for every single game and played basically every meaningful snap except one in the Michigan Michigan State game where he had to step out and Devon Brown came in. So I think we’re getting to the point of the year where it’s like it we got to recognize that as much as we nitpick Will Howard at the same time he’s a big reason why this offense is having the success it has and go into the backup quarterback at this point of the year.

I don’t think would be very seamless. I think Ohio State’s offense would have a tough time against Indiana, against Michigan’s defense, against whoever they played in the playoff if they were to make a quarterback change right now. So are the options on paper better behind Will Howard than they are Donovan Jackson? Yeah. Do I think those options could be good enough to help Ohio State win massive games at this point? I’m not sure about

Stephen Means (17:46.842)

So, Will Howard is second amongst offensive players who have played at least 150 snaps for Ohio State in PFF grade 81.6. I’ll save number one for right now just in case he shows up on this list at some point. He is third in the Big Ten in yards per attempt at 9.6. So far this season,

He has completed 73.2 % of his passes. That’s 150 out of 205 for 1,977 yards. And he is tied with Curtis Rourke and Dylan Gabriel for touchdowns thrown this season at 19. He’s also thrown five interceptions. And I think you can probably make the case that four of those five are pretty loud, regardless of whether they were his fault or not, but also what he’s provided in the run game. 53 runs for 115 yards and five touchdowns. It’s only 2.2, but again, and Andrew and I have both.

yelled at our grabs about the fact that sacks count as rushing attempts in college and they don’t in the NFL. So I wonder what that number is when you take out the sack adjusted yards in those situations. That’s not always easy to collect in a situation like this. So here’s what it sounds like, Stefan. I’m not poking holes in either case right now. No, I do like how you tried. Stefan Ler from the last time we did a debate when it was the Dan Letting, Ryan Day thing. Sometimes he’s got pokes and holes. There’s nothing wrong. I just want to, for sure.

Andrew (19:08.112)

I have a hold to poke in a minute. I’m gonna wait my turn, yeah.

Stephen Means (19:11.994)

I just want to make sure I have everybody’s cases for number one and number two and number three right. I hope this entire pod, this pod might be two hours, but it might be worth it, who knows? Stefan’s case is he’s the quarterback and he’s the quarterback and he’s the quarterback, man. Do you really want to lose that guy in November?

Seriously? And I think it’s a really good case, wholeheartedly, because yeah, he’s the freaking quarterback, man. You don’t lose your quarterback in November and then go win a national championship, except, now I’m gonna start poking holes in both of you guys’ cases, except, except, except, except, except, these fans know you can.

Stephen Means (20:11.13)

except except Bama fans watch theirs get pinched at a halftime and they want a Natty except in 2021 Stetson Bennett wasn’t the starter at the beginning of the year and they won the Natty why? Because as valuable as the quarterback is as we talked about in a video on YouTube after we talked with Ryan Day, Will Howard and Jim Nolte on Tuesday, go check out our YouTube channel for that.

The better the environment, the less you need your quarterback to be special. And maybe Ohio State has one of those environments now that it seems like it’s gotten its act together. Andrew, to your case, again, again, great case. Again, I don’t think there’s anybody else you can even consider for number one other than these three.

I do not think so. Anybody else you would be making a case for, it becomes a best player case and not a valuable case.

Donovan Jackson’s entire case is well, what else do you got and While that is a good case for making value. I don’t think it’s the strongest case to make most valuable simply because a Lot of the case isn’t about him It’s about everybody else and the reason I say that now is because that is where I and I think it’s a little bit like that with stuff

stuff on with Will Howard too, because you both made the cases you were supposed to make with those players. But as much as it is about, they’re valuable, a lot of that case is about other guys. I think that’s where Caleb Downs trumps. And I think that’s where our textures were coming from. Caleb Downs is the only one of these three. If we did a top three, do your job guys. If we did a top three, overall best players.

Stephen Means (22:18.924)

If we did a top three valuable, he is the only one who was consistently in those top threes, along with the fact that you can make a case that he saved Ohio State’s Because that game against Nebraska wasn’t pretty. And if Caleb Dowles isn’t in some of those positions, those are explosive touchdowns. And the way the offensive line exploded, we can’t sit here and say, for sure, Ohio State would have came out of that game with a win.

Had Caleb now has not been in all his positions and stopped, but would have been some 40 yard touchdown. So I get it. I get it. I don’t know if I completely agree with it, but I do get that. His case is just as much about him as it is about Ohio State continuing to tell us that they don’t trust their safety depth at all. And I think once you, when you take that away from all three groups, okay, all three of them have questions about where you go after them.

then you start to have a conversation about which one has the most upside. And I think that one is Caleb Downs very, very easily. My list, I had Donovan Jackson, number one, because it’s just so glaring. And what if it blows up your season? But also I think Donovan Jackson, he did a great job against Abdul Carter. That doesn’t mean he’s going to do a good job against Michael Williams. And it doesn’t mean he’s going to do a good job against.

Whoever else you want to throw out there. So it’s just he’s so it’s such an erratic thing. I wish we I wish we had more of an in game sample size with Don Jackson at left tackle because then we’d have a better idea even in practice. Andrew I know they’ve been saying he’s been doing it in practice at times. I don’t think we ever saw it in the spring or in fall camp that he was doing left tackle stuff and that doesn’t mean he wasn’t. I’m sure he was but it’s just in days we were in there. We didn’t see him do it so we just don’t have a large enough sample size. So because of that.

Andrew (23:57.934)

No, no, did not.

Stephen Means (24:09.088)

I get where the Texers are coming from and you poke your holes.

Andrew (24:14.298)

Well, I think Jackson to me is number one. The reason I had Will Howard number two on a list like this is kind of what was, I guess, argued against me after Saturday was, man, can you imagine if Ohio State had to go to Devin Brown? Like at this point of the year, it would not be good. Like Will Howard has played pretty well this year. He’s been really solid for Ohio State. Can you imagine if they had to play Devin Brown in that game against Penn State?

Stephen Means (24:43.162)

They threw a touchdown pass when Devon Brown came in against Michigan State, by the way. When Devon Brown had to come in for Will Howard, he threw a touchdown pass.

Andrew (24:43.556)

He could have thrown a pix- What’s that?

Andrew (24:52.132)

He did not. Yeah, he did to be fair. I mean, imagine if imagine if Devin Brown played against Penn State, he could have thrown a pick six and fumbled out of the back of the end zone and directly cost Ohio State 14 points. And that could have been the reason Ohio State loses a game. So if that’s going to be the argument of, hey, look, this team is so good that it doesn’t matter. Well, OK, this team is so good that it doesn’t matter. I don’t think Will Howard should be number one in that regard.

Stephen Means (24:55.29)

That’s just a hope hope.

Stephen Means (25:05.114)

No!

Stefan Krajisnik (25:07.928)

the

Andrew (25:21.626)

because we just watched the quarterback hand over 14 points. What do you think is to is Devin Brown going to hand over 21? Like I get if that’s your argument, then maybe but like they just did it on the road like that was the whole argument that was getting thrown at me on Saturday of you know, hey, it’s more important of how he bounced back and it’s more important of how he responded because he just did all these things that you’re saying he can’t do and guess what? It was still fine. Well, OK, it was. Yeah, it was still fine. So now we’re saying that.

that Will Howard has to be number one because bad things might happen. Bad things just did happen. So to me, I

Stefan Krajisnik (25:57.974)

He won the game on the road against the top five team. You make it sound like they lost by 30. Bad things happen. He made mistakes. He didn’t turn the country down.

Andrew (26:02.766)

No, but that’s what I’m saying. Like he handed over 14 points. He handed over 14 points. And if the whole point of this list is the most valuable, Will Howard was not the most valuable on Saturday and it didn’t matter. So that’s my argument that I think if Donovan Jackson had to stay at left guard because he couldn’t play left tackle and all of sudden George Fitzpatrick is playing left tackle, that might’ve been a disaster. Well, the quarterback didn’t go well.

The quarterback position didn’t end great for Ohio State. I’m not saying that the other, I think it was like 64 snaps. I’m not saying the other like 60 snaps or whatever were bad. I think they were fine. It’s just when you throw a pick six and you fumble out of the back of the end zone, you’re directly costing your team 14 points and they still want a top five game on the road. So if we’re talking value, could Devin Brown have not won that game for Ohio State?

Stefan Krajisnik (26:57.546)

That’s fine if you want to argue the Penn State camp that Caleb Downs is number one on your list is not Donovan Jackson either. Gave him two sacks on third down. Two crucial mistakes.

Andrew (27:07.19)

So that the the the one at the far end of the field was was a covered sack. Yeah, I’m not I’m not. Yeah, you can give up a sack. The other one was a covered sack. I, you know, I’m not going to. That’s that’s what happens.

Stephen Means (27:08.826)

Don’t do that! No, no, that’s true.

Stefan Krajisnik (27:12.568)

Stephen, can you?

Stefan Krajisnik (27:17.998)

Steven, can you read those stats again about touchdowns thrown by Big 10 quarterbacks? There was three guys tied for first, right?

Stephen Means (27:26.467)

Yeah, there was three guys tied for first and their names are the other three guys who are in contention for Big Ten offensive player of the year Dylan Gabriel and and Curtis Rourke who will Howard is going to have to beat both of those guys to win the big that that is correct

Stefan Krajisnik (27:41.164)

Yeah, no he is. just, don’t know. It’s the C plus quarterback. He keeps putting up some of the best numbers in the big 10. It’s just crazy to me. I’m okay if the consensus is not Jackson number one. I’m not going to argue that. I’m, I’m, can agree with.

Stephen Means (27:55.13)

Well, don’t know if it is. think I, again, I made my list before I started counting up texture votes purposefully, because I didn’t want to, what would happen was that it would end up becoming my list just cause you see enough of that stuff. So I made my list and then I sat down and started counting up and I am thinking that idea, if that’s where the textures are coming from with this.

Stefan Krajisnik (28:20.942)

So, okay, I’ll just play devil’s advocate here if we want to like we poked holes in both the other cases, the whole outpoking and Caleb Downs is and it’s very hard to poke holes in this argument. But for the sake of argument, if Caleb Downs wasn’t on this roster and Lathan Ransom is fully healthy, I think you have a safety who can do some of the things Caleb Downs. He’s not as good as Caleb Downs. I’ll say that. But if Caleb Downs were to miss a game.

I think you feel pretty comfortable with, we saw Lathan do a lot of things against Penn State, like ways that we’ve seen Caleb Downs used, like we saw Lathan get used that way. The problem with that is I don’t know who the other safety is in it. Probably Jaylen McClain comes in and plays alongside Lathan. So the only hole I can really poke in the Caleb Downs argument is that, you know, could Lathan do some of those things or would he be asked to do more of those things if Caleb Downs wasn’t on this roster? Like, do you feel like you’ve got…

someone else on the roster who can do something similar, not at that level obviously, but pretty similar to what Caleb does.

Stefan Krajisnik (29:27.566)

And maybe the answer is no.

Stephen Means (29:31.524)

This is with all due respect to Lathan Ransom. No. I think Lathan Ransom is a very, very good safety. In fact, I think he is an underrated safety. But it’s one of those situations where Caleb Downs is that good to where it’s like, if he was coming up, I was listening to a pod yesterday. I think it was Todd McShay. Yeah, it was Todd McShay’s pod, because he’s over at the Ringer now. And they were.

And the reason I started listening to it is because they had a huge chunk of their pod where they were re-evaluating the defensive talent on Ohio State’s roster. because we all talked about it in the way in the off season now, it’s like, okay, you’ve played two top tier programs. And so let’s have a conversation about it. And I think the consensus him and his co-host were talking about in the evaluation. again, they’re like, it’s November, right? It’s not like any of these evaluations were firm set in stone. We’re still six months away from any of these guys hearing a name called.

We’re still four months away from NFL teams even getting their eyes on them in underwear, right?

But I think the consensus they came to is the same one I have been starting to come to my own is that this is a very, very, very, good college football defense. It is not historic. It is not. And he brought up Georgia in 2021 and how they had nine guys drafted and he made a point of Ohio State defense. This defense might have nine guys drafted on it in April. But you know the difference between this defense and Georgia’s defense?

in 2021 who had nine guys. There might be five, that was five first rounders. Plus Jalen Carter the next year, who was a backup in 2021. He was a rotational piece. They brought up Bama’s defense, I believe. I think they were talking about the 2020 defense. It’s like, there’s like three or four first rounders. How many first rounders are on this defense right now? Legitimately, seriously.

Stefan Krajisnik (31:27.753)

One, two.

Andrew (31:28.038)

Eventually, or just this year?

Stephen Means (31:29.998)

You know, if everybody who is a starter on this defense was draft eligible and take Caleb Downs out of it. So because that’s the question Stefan just proposed. Caleb Downs doesn’t transfer from Alabama, essentially. How many first rounders are on this starting defense right now?

Andrew (31:33.486)

was dropped eligible.

Andrew (31:52.283)

think one.

Stefan Krajisnik (31:53.55)

Probably one, yeah. I would have told you preseason maybe Denzel would be on that list, but I don’t know now after the Oregon game.

Andrew (31:58.532)

Yeah. I think Tye League is probably my, yeah.

Stephen Means (32:00.89)

And I think that that’s probably the one. And before the season, I think you’re right, Stefan. You would have said maybe Denzel Burke is on that list. Andrew, we were having conversations about, hey, could then Davis and Ibn Olsen and just his traits alone make him a first rounder? And that may still be true because NFL teams don’t get as weird about corners being handsy as they do in college. Maybe they should, but they don’t. And then obviously JT and Jack are out there as well. They teared it.

And they had Ty Lee can a tear and they had Davis and Ignos in the first year of like these guys have legitimate shots to be in first rounders. And then they had a next tier and it got large. was Jack Sawyer, JT Twi Malo out. Denzel Burke was in that tier. And then the next year had like Ty Hamilton and Lathan Ransom. And I think Jordan Hancock was in that tier. Then the next year is where Cody Simon was. They had Sonny Styles in the bottom tier was, was in.

They were talking about Sonny Styles like he was a guy who was undrafted but you pick it but you sign him and I was like really? He’s 6′4″, 235 and he was playing a safety year but it’s because he’s still learning the position and whatnot so I understood where they were coming from. But that pod along with just really taking a step back here, Caleb Downs has gone from the cherry on top in the off season to like he’s uplifting this defense.

It’s a fine defense. Caleb’s going to be the reason it’s elite. And I don’t think Will Howard is going to be the reason Ohio State’s offense is elite. He is a piece of the puzzle. He is not the puzzle. Donovan Jackson at left tackle is a piece of the puzzle that you’re hoping you don’t lose under the couch. But he is never going to be the puzzle. Caleb Downs is the puzzle.

And I think that makes them more valuable in a world where you’re asking questions with all of these guys if they get abducted by an alien.

Andrew (33:55.332)

So… Go ahead.

Andrew (34:07.642)

So the thing with Donovan though that I keep coming back to is like, it kind of feels like you ever put on like a spare tire, like, and you’re like, I just got to get home and then I can deal with this. Like it kind of feels like Donovan playing left tackle is that spare tire where it’s like, man, if this thing goes, the whole thing might collapse. Right. That that’s what I’m trying to fit. Yeah.

Stephen Means (34:27.886)

But does that tie, but does it make, so great analogy. He’s the spare tire that you’re using because you have no other option right now. You just got to get home. Caleb Downs is your engine.

Andrew (34:36.773)

Yes.

Stefan Krajisnik (34:43.999)

What’s the spare tire matter if your engine’s not there?

Andrew (34:48.064)

Sure, is Caleb- I guess that’s a qu- I guess that’s the- yeah.

Stephen Means (34:50.03)

You can’t, if you break, your car, I’m just saying, yeah, let’s, I’m just making the, I think it does sound like we’re coming around for the fact that Will’s probably third. Okay, cool. Cause I just, you’re right, he is the quarterback. But I think he is a third who needs to show us he can be the guy who uplifts some of this stuff and not just, it’s really hard to put him over three.

Stefan Krajisnik (34:51.438)

I think I’m coming around on it, Stephen. I think I’m coming around on it.

Stefan Krajisnik (35:00.045)

Yeah.

Stephen Means (35:17.016)

when he is also saying he doesn’t have to be higher than three, essentially.

Stefan Krajisnik (35:21.71)

Yeah, here’s, here’s, here’s where I’m coming around on the Caleb thing too, is I’m thinking about, so we’re talking about most valuable. I’m thinking about like most valuable player awards. Like they don’t go to the player who it’s like, what happens if something goes wrong? Like it’s something like Donovan, he is the guy that’s like, if things go wrong, what’s the option? But at the same time, like is Donovan going to do something where you’re like, that is why they won though. And I think that’s where Caleb has a little bit of advantage. We can’t just think of.

Stephen Means (35:35.097)

Yeah.

Stephen Means (35:46.168)

Mm-hmm.

Stefan Krajisnik (35:49.942)

of what happens if things go wrong. There has to be an element of like, is this guy going to be responsible for things also going right?

Stephen Means (35:55.822)

Yes, yes, that’s my point. I think this is a fun discussion. I think we should put a pin in it and follow it up at the back end. Cause I wonder how we talk about four through nine. And if, cause we can’t be hypocrites. If we talk about four through nine this way, then we can’t talk about one and two the other way. It’s just, it will be kind of weird here because Andrew’s case is very strong. If Donovan Jackson gets hurt, they, cannot literally afford to lose another tackle.

at this point. But also it’s probably what makes Josh Friar valuable. But okay, we’ll wait, we’ll wait, we’ll wait. Let’s take our first break here. I like the look that Andrew just gave. Let’s take our first break here then we’ll come back and we’ll get into four through six, which I think will be not a 40 minute discussion, but we’ll see. I think this is going to be a really good pot here. So let’s get to our first break and then we’ll come back and continue our list of the most valuable Howl Buckeyes here on.

And we’re back here on Buckeye Talks, Means, Andrew Gillis, Stefan Kreisnick. We are talking the most valuable Ohio State Buckeyes as Ohio State heads into a pivotal November. They’ve got four games left in the regular season two against teams where it’s just like, quite frankly, if you win by less than 17 points, we’re going to be like, what the heck were you doing all week? Another top five matchup potentially, depending on how some things go in the college football rankings over the next couple of weeks with Indiana. And then revenge time.

Potentially against Michigan to close out the season and if you take care of business and Oregon takes care of business You might get a chance to get some revenge on the ducks in the Annapolis as well So here’s our list so far our Texers one through three went Caleb downs will Howard Donovan Jackson We have come to the consensus on one of those and that’s will Howard being number three we have put a pin in our Caleb downs Donovan Jackson at number one and number two argument and so Let’s get

I don’t know. That was fun. I enjoyed it. Let’s continue to have some fun. Stefan, who do you think the Texers had at number four?

Stefan Krajisnik (38:00.918)

Hmm, you know, I have an inkling that is Jeremiah Smith

Stephen Means (38:06.094)

J- Andrew, who do you think the Texers had at number four? Did I give it away by not immediately just shooting down Stephans?

Andrew (38:09.979)

I think it was Jeremiah Smith.

Andrew (38:15.202)

No, you gave it away by doing that little dance thing that you just did. I could tell what it was.

Stephen Means (38:18.17)

Well, because he’s a really good football player, Andrew. I like when really good, really good football players prove they’re really good football player. 39 catches, 678 yards and eight touchdowns plus two carries for 33 yards and a touchdown. The Penn State game is the first time all season he has not scored a touchdown. According to PFF, he is third offensively in overall grade at 80.9. He was number four. It wasn’t close.

He was closer to Donovan Jackson at number three with the Texers than number five was to him. Though he did not receive a single first place vote, which is why I think he is perfect at number four. Because sometimes just being that good can uplift you, but it also stagnates you in a conversation like value. I don’t think he can get any higher than number four.

I also don’t think when you’re that good, you can get any lower than number four because it gets back into, Andrew, feel like we’ve been talking about this even before Nathan left of, hey, Emeka is really good. He is really good. But it’s the Lathan ransom Caleb Downs discussion, right, Stefan? Of like, Lathan’s very, very good, but there’s only one Caleb Downs. Emeka Buka is really good, but there’s only one Marvin Harrison Jr. Emeka’s really good.

Carnell’s really good. There’s only one Jeremiah Smith in the country. And I think he’s like running away with the Belinda Koff Award right now. Though Ryan Williams still making a case. Though I think that case is getting harder with Alabama kind of losing some steam with some losses. I am wondering what they’re going to do with Travis Hunter in terms of class classification with him with some of these awards. And so I think Jeremiah Smith just put himself in a position to win that award. But there’s anybody against Jeremiah at number four.

Stefan Krajisnik (40:08.632)

But I had him exactly there. I think it’s a combination of he is a guy who can win you a game when he’s on He can make plays that change a game I also think you know we talked about the depth that receiver and maybe it’s sometimes it diminishes Jeremiah Who who is the outside? Who’s the receiver that steps in if there’s no Jeremiah? I think there’s a little bit of a gap there Like a mecha is good, but he doesn’t play the position

Stephen Means (40:10.542)

Okay.

Andrew (40:10.918)

for too.

Stephen Means (40:32.794)

Mmm.

Andrew (40:33.008)

Well, I think it’s…

Stephen Means (40:36.11)

He doesn’t play X as well though. I think what they would do if he was not here. So this isn’t like, let’s just say he would have flipped the Miami. I think what they would have done is carnell’s your X and he would just be more involved. But again, it’s a situation of like carnell is going to be a first round draft pick. will gladly mark that down right now. He is going to be a day one draft pick. I don’t care what his production looks like right, right now. If you go watch his tape,

Andrew (40:37.563)

Yeah.

Stefan Krajisnik (40:37.826)

Right.

Stephen Means (41:03.0)

The reason he doesn’t have more catches is because he plays with two other guys who are also first-round topics This is not a Julian Fleming situation where it’s like he’s clearly no, no he is Wow Wow, even that the throw will Howard missed him on He’s like seven yards open man man So he’s probably your ex

The question is, how like married is Brian Hartline to having Emeka in the slot? Because Emeka is so versatile, maybe you put him at Z and you put Brandon Innis in the slot. Or do you go, if you wanna keep Emeka in the slot, then you go Bryson Rodgers? And I think that’s where the gap happens. Because I think, Bryson Innis is better than Bryson Rodgers, but if Emeka’s playing his position, then I think that’s where your gap is.

You’re still right. There is a gap between him and whoever the next X receiver is. I just don’t know if from a production standpoint you miss it, but you miss it from an or a standpoint.

Andrew (42:00.804)

Well, it also comes down to more. It’s you know, we’ve talked about like, what happens if this guy goes down or what happens if this guy’s not around or whatever? Like, it’s also just like leaning into what’s your best at and what Ohio State’s best at is throwing the ball and he’s the best at it or best at catching the ball. Right. Like, you know, so I do understand the argument. And like, obviously, I had Donovan Jackson, number one on my list. You know, I had players that, you know, maybe if they go down, it’s not great or.

Stephen Means (42:11.502)

Yeah.

Andrew (42:27.226)

You players who just play really important position or who are kind of the driving factor of a team, right? Well, this is kind of that driving factor of a team because it’s more than just, well, if Jeremiah Smith goes down, okay, then a Mecca has got to go out and then maybe in his can come in and play the slot early. You can kind of, you know, fiddle around with the positions that receiver, but it diminishes something that you were already great at. And that matters a lot.

because it’s one of those things where it’s like, you hear people say this all the time, we’re a run first team or a pass first team or a defense first team, whatever. Well, if you take away that thing, then what are you? You don’t really have an identity. And I think if Brandon Innis were to have to come into the role and be one of the top three receivers, because Jeremiah Smith wasn’t around or something, yeah, then I don’t think that it would crater, which I think maybe gives him a little bit of a downgrade here, but he’s also just the best receiver that they have.

So you have to lean into your strengths at some

Stephen Means (43:29.754)

So he is tied for 14th in the Big Ten in catches. Emeka Buka is eighth. But when you go yards, he jumps up to third behind Ty Felton at Maryland and then Denzel Boston at Washington. So his yards per catch right now is amongst people who have at least 20 catches is also third. It’s behind Omar Cooper Jr. who’s got 21 for 474, so 22.57. And then Wisconsin’s Vinny Anthony the second.

because Wisconsin has decided they want to be an aerated offense when they probably should just be running the ball, but that’s not a pot for today. 24 for 443, so that’s 17.5. And then he is second behind Denzel Boston from Washington in touchdowns this year. Boston’s got nine and Jeremiah Smith in Oregon, Ted Johnson both have eight. He might be their best player on offense.

Stefan Krajisnik (44:27.086)

The NFL draft would probably agree with you.

Stephen Means (44:28.826)

So that’s fine, so there’s the gaps Now is where it gets a little interesting and I think we can have some conversations and I think for the sake of How long the Caleb downs Donovan Jackson fight at the end of this might be? If you don’t feel like your case is super super strong. I think we should just Concede I think that’s fair. So we don’t we’re not sitting here for five hours So our Texers

had, actually, Angie, who’s fifth on your list? Okay. Stefan, who’s fifth on your list?

Andrew (45:03.696)

Josh Fryer.

Stefan Krajisnik (45:08.376)

Ty League.

Stephen Means (45:09.882)

Ooh, that’s fun.

Stefan Krajisnik (45:13.151)

Andrew, who’s sixth on your list?

Andrew (45:15.386)

Seth McLaughlin.

Stefan Krajisnik (45:16.91)

Okay, had Fryer at six.

Stephen Means (45:18.648)

Is every offensive lineman in your top nine? Okay, cool. All right, I’m just making sure. Who’s six, who’d you have six, Stefan? Okay.

Andrew (45:21.38)

I had three. So those were the only three.

Stefan Krajisnik (45:30.24)

at Friar.

Andrew (45:32.656)

Can I give my defensive Josh Fire just for like 30 seconds?

Stephen Means (45:35.604)

And yeah, once I could, I was gonna let that happen. I was gonna let you go first. So, textures order for five and six, and I’ll bring seven into this mix for the sake, that’s why I said it was interesting. Tyleek Williams was fifth, and he also was, he also got a first place vote.

Andrew (45:37.348)

Okay, in one second. Okay, thank you.

Stephen Means (46:00.632)

Emeka Buka was six and Josh Fryer was seventh. But it’s essentially like they’re in one point. In fact, the only thing, the reason why Tyler gets the edge is because he got the first place vote and Josh Fryer and Emeka Buka didn’t get any first place votes.

Stephen Means (46:23.02)

Andrew, go first, because I think I’m going to agree with you.

Andrew (46:25.702)

So the reason why I have Friar Fifth is, without rehashing the Donovan Jackson points, think, who else you got? A tackle, think that definitely plays a part of this. But I didn’t get a chance to ask Ryan Davis the other day, but he said after the game that it felt like he didn’t notice Carson Hinsman, and that was a really good thing.

It feels like we haven’t really noticed Josh Fryer these last couple of weeks. And it feels like what, you know, we’re just kind of loud mistakes last year. Like Steven and I have talked about this where Josh Fryer plays a pretty decent game and then you look up and it’s third and four and he gives up a sack and you’re like, what in the world was that? I just, I think Josh Fryer has played fairly solid over these last couple of weeks. And I think that that has maybe been an under discussed part of this offense of just, you got a dude who’s playing fairly decent.

He’s not really screwing up to the naked eye, right? know, like some, were points last year where you would get bull rushed and it was just, you know, pretty quick that, you know, he would get beat off the edge or with the speed rush or whatever. And I don’t think that that’s happening this year. And as you watched the games back, I don’t think that that’s necessarily happening a ton. And Josh Fryer just kind of being a reliable force on the offensive line matters a whole heck of a lot. So yeah, I think he’s been, he’s been solid and

Again, I wouldn’t say that he’s their best lineman or probably even their second best lineman this year. But I think for the position that he plays, just stability is a really big benefit and that’s exactly what he’s given you.

Stephen Means (48:06.33)

So Josh Fryer, 464 snaps this season, all of them have been at right tackle and he’s given up three pressures and one sack. And it was a bad sack against Marshall. He gave up a sack. His 64.3 PFF grade is one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11th amongst anyone who’s played at least 150 snaps so far this season.

Stefan, you wanna make the case for Ty Leek being number five, so the floor is yours.

Stefan Krajisnik (48:41.55)

Yeah, I think a big thing for any defense is winning the rushing battle, right? Not letting teams run the ball and Ohio State’s got the one, one of the best rush defenses in the country. think nationally ranks in the top 10 in terms of rush defense, among power, power conference teams in conference play. They’re like right around the top 10. So like it’s, it’s translated to big 10 play as well. And you go over to PFF and interior defenders in terms of the grades they get for rush defense. Ty Leek is 11th in the country. So.

he’s, mean, we talked about him a lot, you know, in the early part of season of he’s plays one of those thankless positions that you probably just don’t really notice. And the stats aren’t always eye popping. He is a big reason Ohio state has one of the best rush defenses in the country. And when you have a good rush defense, it just changes so much of what offenses do against you. I think that was a big thing for Penn State. mean, Penn State’s had a relatively good rushing attack.

I think Ohio State kind took that away from them and made Drew, drew Al or beat them, whether it be with his legs or with his arms. And that was a good position to be in if your Ohio State is, is to make Penn State beat you through the air considering what you have in your secondary. So I think a lot of what Caleb Downs does for this defense in terms of the wow factor, I think Tylee Williams does a lot of that quieter and as just a player that is very valuable to that unit. And I think changes a lot of things of how a game plays out when, when he’s playing at his best.

Stephen Means (50:09.984)

Tyler Williams, the second best defensive player.

Stefan Krajisnik (50:13.218)

I think so. Maybe it’ll be your first wrong pair.

Stephen Means (50:15.268)

You think so, Anglin? Yeah.

Andrew (50:18.296)

I think so. think he’s I think yeah, I think Stephane’s right. I think they have one first round pick on the defense this year and I think it’s

Stephen Means (50:19.203)

Okay.

Stephen Means (50:25.557)

Okay. He’s fifth on defense again amongst people played at least 150. That’s just my, because that means you play a lot of football for this team. And I said 150, because obviously on the defensive line, you can rotate a little bit more in some positions than other, even though they don’t really do that here. 79.3. He’s got eight pressures. He’s also missed two games. So his counting stats.

I think aren’t as eye popping as they would be, especially when the two games he missed, one of which was essentially a stat padding game for someone of his caliber. He’s got 21 total tackles, four TFLs, which is fifth on the team. He’s got two and a half sacks, which is second on the team. It’s tied with Jack Sawyer and Ty Hamilton for second on the team behind JT Toy Maloa, who was like quietly having a really good year this year. But again, they don’t give me pressure.

So I’m gonna introduce another name right here. And yeah, yeah, go ahead.

Stefan Krajisnik (51:25.74)

I’ll say one more thing on Tyleek too. I think we’ve forgot. We’ve quickly forgotten that when he he missed Western Michigan and they missed Marshall in Michigan State. The two games that he missed, I think. Those were the first two games where we were like this defense and then in Oregon kind of the the damn broke. So let’s not forget that the two games that he missed, because I know there’s know, Kaden McDonald made a huge play when Tyleek was out and that’s quickly going to be like a well, I mean.

Stephen Means (51:38.394)

Yes!

Stefan Krajisnik (51:54.784)

lost highly one the biggest. Yeah I know because I know what the counterpoint is your current Mike the counter to the counter is that was one play we saw over a period and we were like and that was against Marshall Michigan State so let’s not forget those two games.

Stephen Means (51:55.246)

Don’t take my counterpoint away before I get a chance to say it.

Stephen Means (52:03.877)

Yeah

Stephen Means (52:10.234)

So I think before the season, I think you kind of could have made a case that like Donovan Jackson, you could have left tightly off the list. Different reasons in Donovan Jackson, but because you were expecting the depth that defensive tackle to be deeper. Every time we would ask about it, Jim Knowles would go, Kaden McDonald, Kaden, Kaden McDonald. Kaden McDonald. I sound like Bane.

KERDI MCDONALD!

You adopted the pass rush. I was born in it. Molded by the pass rush.

You only found out about the pass rush when you got to Ohio State, but by then it was all I knew. Okay. You could have made that case. And then Stefan just stepped on when I was getting ready to step on the fact that Tyler Williams was missing two games and it was like, this is an opportunity to see the depth of the defensive tackle. We’re like, let’s not see the depth of the defensive tackle anymore. It like, it just kind of shot him up the list, right? Yes, the Kaden McDonald play was one play.

But sometimes that’s all it takes, man, to jumpstart some things here. And there’s a chance Tylee Williams doesn’t play this weekend. I am expecting him to play, but all at the same time, they’re playing Purdue. And if his ankle situation is lingering at all, I don’t think anybody is going to go, how dare you sit out your second best defensive player against a team that you probably should beat by 30, right? No one’s going to say that, which means we’re going to see more of Kaden MacDonald. And if he builds on that,

Stephen Means (53:52.37)

I think it drags Ty Lee down the list. I don’t think we can kick him off. He has to be in the top nine. And so he’s going to be somewhere on this list. But I just think we’re in a weird spot where Stefan is right, but also Katie McDonald’s in year two. And we’re at that point where you two guys who are going to be something in year two start to really pop. So we could be talking very differently about defensive tackle depth after this week. So that’s where I would go with.

Stefan Krajisnik (54:18.338)

We’ll see you next week then.

Stephen Means (54:20.09)

Yeah, we’ll just we’ll just do value pods every Thursday for the rest of the season. You just have a power ranking So that’s why I am going to

Present maybe we put him seven here is why I think a mecha Buka can get pulled down a little bit Very valuable piece But again, it’s just unfortunate that I don’t We appreciate a mecha Buka I just don’t know if you can ever fully do it in a world where it’s like he’s the ultimate Second wide receiver on a team, but he keeps playing with dudes

who have Hall of Fame potential, man. I don’t know what to do with that. You spent your career where you’re the running mate to Marvin Harrison Jr. and Jeremiah Smith. It’s not your fault. It’s just what happened here.

Because I’m going to introduce another offensive lineman who I think I would like to put above Josh Fryer. And a lot of it is the way they’ve been talking about him over the last couple of weeks here and his value to this team. And that’s Seth McLaughlin, who is five, six, seven. I’m sorry, I have some guys out of order here. Five, six, seven. He’s tied for six.

And the other guys he’s tied for six with are Emeka, Buka, Quin-Shawn Judkins, and Seth McLaughlin. Quin-Shawn Judkins and Seth McLaughlin both got first place votes as well. In fact, Seth McLaughlin got a decent amount of first place votes.

Stephen Means (56:02.478)

He is from the way they talk about him and the way he is playing. I know he got the Ryan, they got asked about some snaps. They haven’t always been on par. They haven’t been as bad as they were at Alabama last year, but they’re in a way where it’s like something could go wrong, but it’s not enough to really like make it an issue yet. But I just think Seth McLaughlin, there was a point this year where I thought he was the best center in college football. I don’t know if that’s still the case. He’s got 71.5.

PFF score and so far this season he has given up

Stephen Means (56:40.868)

Five pressures. Two of them were against Oregon, which I mean, listen, if you didn’t give up at least one pressure against Oregon where you really planned right, that’s one of the better defensive lines in the country and the other and the other two came against Akron in Michigan and he gave up one to Penn State. So his pressures have come in the first two games of the season where he’d been practicing next to Donovan Jackson and all of a sudden he’s having to help out Austin Cereveld, who’s a first time starter, and you’re having to help out Tegwa Shibola, who’s a first time starter. So you almost excuse those pressures.

And then his other three pressures have been against two defensive lines. So if we made a list of the top six defensive lines in college football, they’re both easily on those lists. So you almost, it’s not, they’re not issues for me. And then he did it again against Penn State. had to help Carson Hensman. He’s already been helping Carson Hensman get ready to be this team center next year. Now he’s helping play left guard. I just think his value level is so understated and the way Ryan Day keeps going and Chip Kelly keep going out of their way to tell us how valuable.

how important of a pickup that was. I want to make the case for him being number five and Josh Fryer being six and Tyler Williams being seven.

Andrew (57:50.896)

So I had Friar originally five, McLaughlin six, Tye League seven. I’m totally cool with flipping McLaughlin Friar on my list. I’m totally cool with that. I think if, if we were to do a list of like the sneakiest good players on Ohio State’s team or the most underrated players on Ohio State’s team, I think Seth would probably be number one for me. He’s played at a level that has been very, very high this year. you know, the snapping issues have, and I know you said he got asked about it or right. got asked about it, but.

Stephen Means (58:05.006)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew (58:20.784)

The snapping issues have seemingly gone away. The play has been really strong from him. I mean, what like we talk about the tackles kind of collapsing this line, like if you have another injury or something like that, man, what happens if you had to go to an offensive line with Carson Hinsman and Luke Montgomery and Tegra Shabola up the middle? Like that’s not great. So for me,

Stephen Means (58:44.27)

You wanna know how valuable Seth McLaughlin is? Ohio State Binstead starting center to bring him in.

Andrew (58:50.864)

Sure. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So yeah, I think you’re right with, you know, maybe more of just the off field stuff as well. Everybody that talks about Seth McLaughlin talks about him in glowing fashion that is not just, hey, yeah, he’s been really good. It’s my goodness, you have no idea what he’s done for this guy off the field. And he said he’s he steadies the line and he knows everything. Like one of the first things I asked Tegra in fall camp was like, what has Seth brought to the room? And he was like, bro, he knows everything.

Like he’s like it was crazy. So yeah, I’m totally cool with going McLaughlin five Fryer six, Tyler seven. just I think with the depth of defensive tackle, but then also kind of what you’ve, you know, brought on the offensive line. I think that puts those two guys ahead.

Stefan Krajisnik (59:34.656)

I would. I’m fine with Seth at 5. I would argue for Tylek to be ahead of Brian though.

Stephen Means (59:40.486)

Well, let’s let’s continue it then that’s good. That’s where YouTube battle it out because I’m cool with either or being in this situation I just I wanted to make that fight for Seth because like He is not the shiniest transfer they got Right. Obviously Caleb Dowell’s and Quinn Sean are the two shiniest they got will is probably the loudest because he plays quarterback but

It’s just it’s an underrated thing that they got this kid who has been a multi-year starter for Nick Saban at Alabama And he’s just like yeah, I’ll come be your center for a year. I’ll come do I’ll come save your center position For a year because you had to play a guy too early. So okay. This is now a battle between you two One of you has to concede Ready fight step on you can go first

Stefan Krajisnik (01:00:29.262)

I conceded Donovan Jackson over Will, so you have to concede.

Stephen Means (01:00:34.808)

Look at you guys not trying to take it to court like some lawyers. I love that.

Andrew (01:00:36.07)

That’s the concession, wow.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:00:38.35)

Here’s the thing. Here’s the thing. I’m not going to poke holes in Josh Fier. I is yes, I 100 % agree that the depth that offensive tackle right now is thin. The only thing I would say though is that we keep saying the depth that defensive tech like I get it. I’m huge on Caden McDonnell. I think he’s going to be a problem next season and already is a problem for teams this season.

Stephen Means (01:00:49.103)

Mm-hmm.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:01:04.472)

But a lot of it is projecting again of just we, we said this and entirely went down and it wasn’t like there’s a difference between being the guy who comes in and has a few really good snaps. I say this with Mitchell Melton as well. Right. I’m not saying it’s time for Mitchell Melton to be the starting defensive end. It’s just, he should go from like four snaps at 10. It’s tough when a dude steps up and it’s you’re the starter now and here’s 30, 40 snaps. Then you kind of start to see where it is. And when we saw it against Marshall and Michigan state, it wasn’t too convincing for me.

Stephen Means (01:01:22.084)

Mm-hmm.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:01:34.06)

And we, that’s when we started to see the first holes in this defense and it led to Ryan Day and his staff re-engineering the defense. think getting Tyleek back was, was huge for them. think that’s, think we’re starting to see, you know, what a healthy Tyleek meant for this team. think you saw it against Penn State, and the way it kind of changed some things up. I thought against Iowa too. mean, thinking about the struggles Iowa had running the ball and the success that, you know, they had as a rushing attack and what Tyleek was, was able to do to help slow them down. So the only.

I said I wouldn’t poke holes in the fryer thing. The only hole I would poke is that we were saying, what is your next option left tackle? Is it moving Josh Fry to left tackle? It’s because we think left tackle is way more important than right tackle. And I think you can kind of piece it together a little bit at right tackle if you need to. So that’s why I go with I side with tightly here. I just, don’t think you can go seven spots down this list and only mentioned one defensive plate.

Andrew (01:02:30.296)

I that definitely speaks to how good the rest of the defense is, or at least how talented the rest of the defense is. Because I think the argument for Friar is you haven’t seen what disaster looks like if he’s not in the lineup. And I know we’re saying, Ty Leake wasn’t in the lineup and things didn’t go great. But I think if Ty Leake’s not in the lineup, I think you can patch that together with Ty Hamilton or Cade McDonald or Hiro Kanu or Jason Moore.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:02:59.182)

Maybe.

Andrew (01:02:59.742)

There’s options there that you could piece it together. And yes, it’s not going to be as good. Like, you know, all of these players on this list are good to the point where if they’re out of the lineup, it’s not going to be as good. But I just I look at the drop from Tyleek and say, wow, I’ve seen enough from some of these guys to where this truly matters. Well, where if you look at Josh Fryer and I think he’s been solid, like, again, I think this is kind of like a Donovan Jackson argument where it’s like

He’s been solid to the point where you’re like, you know what? Don’t have a ton of concerns there about Josh Friar right now. I don’t think anybody’s looking at Josh Friar every week, like especially like fans were last year and maybe like we were last year going, man, this could get ugly. Like what happens if you face a really good pass rusher and, you know, he, you know, beats you off the edge. Like, I don’t think that that concern is there this year like it was last year, but the drop from Friar, I just think when you talk about kind of what could be

there’s at least options for Thai League and for Friar, I don’t think that that exists. I think, I mean, Thai League is obviously the better player relatively like to their position. I think Thai League is obviously, you know, the, the more talented player, the player who’s going to go higher in the NFL draft, the, the player who’s going to get the postseason recognition, all this other stuff. But I think again, when you talk about this offensive line, it kind of looks to be held together right now by not a ton.

Whereas at least with the defense, you’re talking about options. And with the offensive line, it’s we’re going to play a dude who was a true freshman or is a true freshman and was in high school last year. If Josh Fryer gets hurt. And that is a really disastrous place to be. And I don’t think that if you get to that position, you’re talking, man, this wasn’t as good. I think you’re talking, this is a disaster.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:04:53.358)

But I think it goes back to the conversation of this. This list isn’t just you know what what does depth look like? Like what happens if someone gets hurt? I mean, you know the the Bears side of me will show here, but like a keem Hicks like what he did. He was not considered a great defensive tackle because the Bears didn’t have depth behind him. He was considered a great defensive tackle because he helped anchor one of the best rush defenses in the league because of how good he was. And when when he was hurt, no matter how great the backups were, you saw a step back.

Stephen Means (01:04:59.502)

you

Stefan Krajisnik (01:05:21.006)

I think with Ty leak sure the depth is good, but when he’s not there, we saw that the rush defense isn’t great like it is when he’s in. So it is Josh Fryer very valuable because of the depth. Yeah, it’s Josh Fryer. So when you look at you say he’s the reason they want a game. I don’t know. Maybe I’m an offensive lineman. Don’t really get that recognition in the first place. But I think with Ty leak, you could say that I think Ty leak does things where you’re just like, man, they could not move the ball.

Andrew (01:05:43.557)

I just

Stefan Krajisnik (01:05:49.238)

up the middle or quarterbacks couldn’t step up in the pocket because of what Tyleek Williams did.

Andrew (01:05:53.67)

And I guess that comes out of, guess maybe like how well you think Friar’s played this year. Like I think Friar’s been pretty solid and I think he’s been like a solid B. I’m not going to say that he’s mauling people off the line or he’s done enough to put himself in position to be a first round pick or a second round pick or even like a third round pick. But I do think he’s been good. Like I think he’s been like above average to the point where

Stefan Krajisnik (01:06:00.544)

I so too.

Andrew (01:06:21.092)

I think that that depth conversation matters. So yeah, like I guess if you’re just looking at it going, well, Josh Friar is not really that good. Then I think that the tie league argument makes more sense to me. And I would be far more on board with that if Josh Friar was just like, if the only argument was, well, it’s just who else you got. You don’t really have anybody else. I think Josh Friar has been fairly solid this year, which I think plays into this as well.

Stephen Means (01:06:42.174)

I’m gonna be a nerd for a second. I love nerds Webster’s dictionary Defines the word value as it’s now first and foremost it can be used as a verb though if you value Something which is like the estimate of some money or something or you consider something

Andrew (01:06:45.513)

boy.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:07:00.556)

we should value defensive tackles.

Stephen Means (01:07:04.378)

And that’s why we’re the writers, ladies and gentlemen. But it’s a noun, first and foremost. It’s the regard that something is held to deserve, the importance, worth, or usefulness of something. And then the second definition is a person’s principles or standards of behavior, one’s judgment of what is important in life. So that’s more of a morals definition. the definition for this purpose is the regard that something is held to deserve the importance, worth, or usefulness

of something. By that definition.

Stephen Means (01:07:41.67)

I lean towards Stefan’s argument because again, Josh Friar’s usefulness and importance and what we hold him to is less about him and more about what if you lose him, right? And

I don’t always know if that makes you the most valuable. It makes you valuable, but not the most valuable. Here’s my question for you, Andrew.

Stephen Means (01:08:20.046)

You had two weeks to pick a new left tack.

which meant plenty of reps to go around. And the options Ohio State came up with for what is still the more important position, though Penaise Sinezul by the day is raising that price of right tackles, baby boy. Because sometimes if you’re just a freak athlete, it don’t matter what they put you on the offensive line. You’re gonna be awesome.

But typically, you put your best tackle or left tackle. That’s just kind of how football goes. It’s just like you put your best receiver back side of the formation at X.

Stephen Means (01:09:04.192)

Why doesn’t it sound like during those two weeks, there was never an option of Zin Mohulski at right tackle, Josh Fryer at left tackle.

Andrew (01:09:21.541)

Because I think that’s upsetting the apple cart too much. I think that that’s changing too much of an on an offensive line that already has changed. Like I think if you were to move Fryer to left tackle, you got one guy playing a new position and you got somebody else coming in and playing a position and you got the new guy playing a position and that new position is left tackle and you’re flipping him and you have a guy coming in off the bench and that guy who’s coming off the bench is playing tackle. And and I think that that can hurt you off the edge, especially against a team like Penn State.

Stephen Means (01:09:50.468)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew (01:09:51.257)

You know, I think that that’s, you know, that is obviously a negative when you’re like dealing with the edge rushers, the Penn state has, I know one of them was kind of limited. So you have Abdul Carter and that’s just not a great place to be. So I think the path that Ohio state shows was with Michalski. Let’s just plug somebody in and let’s just make this a one for one swap and hope for the best. And then when you move Jackson, it was okay. Well, at least this guy has played left tackle before. And like Ryan Day said,

Stephen Means (01:10:19.364)

But he had.

Andrew (01:10:19.93)

That was our plan to get through. I’m saying like he had played the position in his life. Like at least, you know, like that was the.

Stephen Means (01:10:25.306)

Yeah, so had I mean most offensive lineman played left tackle in high school because they’re the best offensive lineman on our team

Andrew (01:10:31.696)

Sure. The but like with Ryan Day, like what Ryan Day said after the game was like, that was our plan to get us through the game. And then we were going to reevaluate. So I think that that was very much a Donovan is going to go to left tackle. We’re going to move a new left guard in there just because if we start moving around the entire offensive line, that could just really kind of change things and confuse some people. And I think they just tried not to do that. So I don’t I don’t know if that was necessarily an indictment on fryer. I just think they wanted to keep

a semblance of normalcy, because then you can keep McLaughlin, Shabola, Friar on the right side, Jackson still is playing on the left side, and then you’re just moving in a new left guard, or you keep Jackson at left guard and you move in Mahalski. Like I think that they were just trying to keep things as relatively steady as they could. I don’t think that that’s a, well, Josh Friar is not our best lineman, because like at that point, it’s like, okay, is Tegra better fit at left tackle than guard? I don’t know. Like you could make a lot of different arguments for.

you know, guys playing left tackle if that’s just the best lineman and I don’t think that that was the case.

Stephen Means (01:11:32.196)

So would you say that it’s easier to go from left guard to left tackle than it is to go from right tackle to left tackle? Is it easier to move a guy from left guard to left tackle because at least it’s the same and in some ways the same like you know kind of stance you’re still working with the same side versus moving a guy from right tackle to left tackle. Okay.

Andrew (01:11:38.788)

Say that one more time it is

Andrew (01:11:50.916)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

I think so. And I think in this case, particularly because like when you move Jackson, a left tackle, he was playing with Hinsman on the inside. Guess who played with Hinsman on the inside of him all of last year, right? Like there was a familiarity with, Jackson and Hinsman. Yeah. So Hinsman was on the right of him. And then too, like I’ve had, I’ve had like offensive lineman describe this to me, like in the NFL or whatever, like it’s different flipping from the left to the right side, because everything’s inverted. Your steps are inverted. Your hands are inverted.

Stephen Means (01:12:08.482)

He was on the left side of Hinsman all last year.

Andrew (01:12:24.972)

linemen have described it like going to the bathroom and wiping with the other hand. Like that is how offensive linemen describe it. They’re like, imagine doing everything that you do during the day with your right hand or your left hand. Imagine flipping it. It’s just awkward and it doesn’t feel right. So if you stay on that left side, it does make it a little more, you know, it does make it a little bit easier of a transition. And then with Hinsman, Hinsman played next to Donovan Jackson and Hinsman’s not going to go play tackle.

Stephen Means (01:12:36.73)

No.

Stephen Means (01:12:53.528)

I wish Denied in a sudden would have played on Saturday.

Andrew (01:12:56.49)

that would have been such great.

Stephen Means (01:12:58.266)

Because that’s the key thing that was missing. Because then it’s like, because Denied, then it suddenly was a five-star recruit who was turned into a guy who at worst is like an early day two pick, I think in my opinion now. And him and Abdul Carter together, I think, would have very much changed the math of this conversation in terms of whether or not, because your point, we are all beating down the idea of like, you can’t just be valuable just because the guy behind you sucks. I can’t just be the entire thing.

So Andrew’s point he’s making with Josh Sire is he is a friar is he’s also been pretty decent this year. He’s been pretty good. So it’s a little bit of both. If denied Dennis Sutton had spent the day picking on Josh Friar while Donovan Jackson is at least putting up a fight against Abdul Carter, this is a different conversation. So how about this? We’re not allowed to do this for the number one spot because no, it’s not stupid.

But we have seen this from the AP poll before and we have seen it from the CFP before. Sometimes they tie.

And in the name of not trying to spend another 20 minutes getting Stefan and Andrew to come off hills, they are clearly ready to figuratively die on. How about we have 6A and 6B, Josh Fryer and Tyleek Williams, and you two can decide which, in your own ways, not on this pod, who is A and who is B.

Andrew (01:14:26.254)

I’m good with that.

Stephen Means (01:14:27.834)

Okay, that’s how we settled that one right there. All right, let’s take our final break. And then I’m gonna run down the rest of the list of people that the textures voted on. We’re going to decide not eight, nine, and then we are going to resume the battle for the number one spot here on Buckeye Talk.

This has been fun. Get the text. X one four three five. three, three one five. Stephen means Stefan Christic and Andrew Gillis. are ranking the top nine most valuable players on Ohio State’s roster. That’s not a list of best player because to be honest with you, the list we’ve configured so far, I don’t know if a couple of them are on it. No, I’m not sure they’re not on it, right? It’s an interesting situation. So far. Here’s what we’ve decided. The number one spot is still up in the air between Caleb Downs and Donovan Jackson. Will Howard.

Also a medalist he comes in at number three Jeremiah Smith is number four Seth McLaughlin number five and then we have a 6a 6b situation with Tyler fryer or Josh Williams That’s how we’re do it No, I know Yeah, Brian Tyler’s waves and whatever order you want to put them in there for six a and six feet So now as we’ve got eight and nine here is everybody else the textures wrote it on who has not made this list yet Mecca Bucca

Andrew (01:15:30.256)

thought that was an accident at first and then I realized you did it on purpose. Yeah.

Stephen Means (01:15:45.518)

Quinchun Judgens, as I mentioned earlier, were tied for sixth with Seth McLaughlin. McLaughlin and Quinchun Judgens both got first place vote consideration. Josh Fryer, as we mentioned, on this list. Cody Simon, Trevion Henderson, Kaden MacDonald, Denzel Burke, Jayden Fielding, ticker, all got multiple votes. Lathan Ransom, he only got one vote, but it was a first place vote.

And then Sonny Styles, JT, Twin, Maloba, and Jaxler also got votes as well. Anybody from that list people agree with?

Stephen Means (01:16:25.558)

No! Complete no’s all around! All silence! Okay! Well then! Stuff on! Who’s eight and nine?

Stefan Krajisnik (01:16:38.286)

Well, I will apologize if I zoned out for some of the names, but my eight and nine are Jordan or not. Sorry. I just read that in the wrong order. Cody Simon and Jordan Hancock. Okay. Jordan Hancock was the other.

Stephen Means (01:16:46.298)

Yeah, Carly Simon was on the list.

Stephen Means (01:16:50.936)

Okay, so we got Cody and Hancock are eight and nine for Stefan. Andrew, who’s your eight and nine?

Andrew (01:16:59.812)

Yeah, thought I was about to say something. I thought you said a mecha. I had Hancock at eight and a mecha at nine on my list.

Stephen Means (01:17:05.402)

Okay.

Mecha at 9.

Stephen Means (01:17:16.814)

Hancock didn’t get a vote with Chuck.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:17:20.078)

We keep forgetting about him. He keeps getting forgotten about.

Andrew (01:17:20.164)

Yeah, that was weird. That’s the point. I think that’s the point, right? Like, I think that’s why I think he’s kind of valuable is people just kind of forget about him.

Stephen Means (01:17:30.81)

No, because if something is valuable, you’re not going to forget it. If you have a art piece in your house, you’re not going to be letting your kid play with it around sharp objects. No, you’re not going to forget about the art. Art project is up there on the wall.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:17:35.02)

you shouldn’t have been forgotten about.

Stephen Means (01:17:51.214)

He’s so underrated and they keep taking him off the field.

But also if they keep caking him off the field, I think it hurts his value.

Stephen Means (01:18:03.332)

So I don’t think George Hancock can make this list.

Andrew (01:18:07.618)

The reason I had him on here and when I got to eight and nine, was kind of like, you know, what if I lose, I’m not going to be heartbroken. I’m not going to be like, no, I’m, I’m still right. Even if, even if their argument goes wrong, I, the thing with Hancock to me is that I thought it was really interesting that when you have some injuries in the secondary, like they talked about maybe moving him to safety and you know, he’s playing that’s what, but that, right. But that’s the, you, you like talk about moving to safety.

Stephen Means (01:18:28.75)

They did move him to safety. He started at safety.

Andrew (01:18:36.08)

Then he plays it safety. He plays that slot corner roll. Like I think that that’s a really valuable part of Ohio State’s defense. And that’s why I had him at eight just because I think, you know, it’s kind of one of those guys that, that wears a lot of hats and he can do a lot of different things for you. And, know, when you play a team that spreads you out, I think that that really matters.

Stephen Means (01:18:56.351)

I had him at eight and then he didn’t get any votes. And so I don’t know what to do with that.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:19:03.886)

We have the power to executive order and put him on there.

Stephen Means (01:19:06.904)

I’m not gonna, that’s not a road I’m going down. This is a.

Andrew (01:19:09.36)

Yeah.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:19:11.739)

Listen, I didn’t say who the executive was. I’m just saying you have the power.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:19:18.702)

There’s been a lot of executives in the year.

Stephen Means (01:19:19.866)

So anyway, back to football talk. We’re gonna stay at football talk. We’re gonna stay at football talk forever. I think I’m actually gonna cut that part out in all seriousness. Because as you never know, I’m gonna cut that out. yeah, for a lot of reasons. All right.

Andrew (01:19:21.124)

Yeah, just have him win the electoral college. We’ll put him up there.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:19:26.19)

Okay, talk.

Stephen Means (01:19:41.498)

because I don’t, Jordan Hancock is more underrated than a valuable at this point, I think in his career.

It pains me to say it, but I think.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:19:52.568)

So are we in agreement then that Cody Simon should be eight?

Stephen Means (01:19:56.314)

Yeah, I don’t even think that should be up for conversation.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:20:00.6)

His argument has gone up the last couple of weeks because they’ve started to use him in different ways and I think he’s becoming a problem for offenses.

Stephen Means (01:20:06.52)

He is a legitimate problem for offenses.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:20:08.93)

He is no longer like great tack or great linebacker who picks up a bunch of tackles and is the quarterback of the defense. No, he’s like he’s a playmaker on the defense.

Stephen Means (01:20:16.824)

Yeah, like I get it when you’re talking about NFL upside his is maybe not the highest in the room maybe But that dude really freaking good man. He’s really good shame on the Bucknitz award for not having him as a semi-finalist. I think that is a Misguided step not having him and it wasn’t because you can’t have multiple guys from one school Alabama whose defense is atrocious and they’ve got two guys on that list

He has been their best linebacker and it’s, don’t think it’s necessarily close. think Sonny Styles is starting to figure it out. And again, Stefan and I, this is an R. Valries podcast. This is what we do. He should be, you know, just give him the Banneric award. Forget about it. And the LeBron, LeBronian, let’s keep it pushing. But Cody Simon, his value was to the roof, especially since they’re starting to use him a little bit more. So now it’s nine.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:20:57.794)

He should have been a semi-finalist.

Stephen Means (01:21:16.708)

Kaden MacDonald got some votes, I don’t think you can put in more here. So that’s like, don’t think so. Here are the people I want to make cases for, a Mecca for sure.

I want to make a case for a lot of people did Quinchon and Trevion together. And that was the one place where I was like, I think I’m going to allow it because they’re killing people on the field.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:21:40.632)

We’re allow if we’re allowing that then that’s my number nine just running running back

Stephen Means (01:21:43.34)

Okay. Okay.

Andrew, what do you think?

Andrew (01:21:52.538)

Hmm.

Stephen Means (01:21:53.376)

I can continue to name names if that helps.

Andrew (01:21:55.118)

Yeah, because I hadn’t considered because I because the reason why I didn’t even consider trading on her quinch on was because yeah, I did not consider the the dual citizenship of this running back tandem.

Stephen Means (01:21:59.546)

Cause I, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s like having the other one takes away from the other one.

Andrew (01:22:11.768)

Sure, yeah, so yeah, exactly.

Stephen Means (01:22:14.158)

But the reason why I think I’m going to allow it is because I see something happening. Quint John Duncan started for the first time against Penn State. And I think I said before the season that I didn’t think he was going to start a single game, meaning he was going to be the first running back to take the field.

for a single game and if it did it would be later on in the season and you guys are like, no, what are you talking about? It’s gonna be Gwyn John. It’s gonna be first Gwyn John. And that was right. was going to be, it Trayvon Henderson for the first half of the season. Why? Cause he’s been here and that’s where you go with.

but I’ve noticed something over the past couple of games that I think is important. So on the season,

Trevion Henderson has played 231 snaps. He has turned that into 72 carries for 503 yards and seven yards per carry and four touchdowns plus another nine catches for 43 yards. His PFF grade 79.9 is fourth offensively. Quinshawn Judkins has played eight less snaps, so 223 snaps. He has an 85.2 PFF grade. That is the highest of anybody offensively on Ohio State’s team. I’m sure it’s probably like top 15 in.

country amongst running backs. He has 95 carries for 615 yards, that’s 6.5 yards per carry and six touchdowns. And he has 10 catches for 81 yards in the touchdown and 223 snaps. What I noticed against Penn State was they both play the same amount of snaps essentially every single game, but they don’t get used the same way. Quinn Sean gets used a lot more like a primary back.

Stephen Means (01:24:06.392)

where it’s like first and second down, we’re giving this guy the ball. If someone’s gonna get 20 carries in a big game, it’s gonna be Quint John over Trevion. That’s where I’m at with it. Trevion has become a lot more what I think he’s going to be in the NFL. And I think probably fits his skillset the best is the third down guy. Both of them are blocking their butts off, but the third down guy, he can hit your home runs when you need it, right? You can use him in the passing game a little bit, but.

Quinchon’s your guy when you need to give a guy the ball 20 plus times and that was even noticeable on the five minute 13 Second drive at the end of the game I think Quinchon got like the first four or five carries and he got tired and trade beyond came in to spell them Then they brought back Quinchon after I think they took one of the timeouts That is why I’m allowing them to be combined Because they are what we see in the NFL now where you’ve got two backs

two very different complementary skill sets and they’re essentially one running back. And that’s what the running back position in the NFL has become. And they have found a way to do that with Quin-Shawn and Trevion because while they both can do a little bit of everything, they’re not quite the same back. That’s why it works. If Quin-Shawn Judkins was just a Trevion Henderson photocopy, I don’t think this would work. If Trevion Henderson was a Quin-Shawn Judkins photocopy, I don’t think this would work.

But Quinn Sean needs to get going. He needs more carries to get into a rhythm. Problem is Ole Miss gave him 250 carries every single year. And he said, yeah, I would like to play class 25, please. So I’m going to leave and go somewhere that’ll actually allow me to get to my second NFL contract. Because if not, my career is gonna be done at 24. Trevion needed somebody who could get 20 carries a game.

because that’s never been his forte ever. Back to the first time he ever got it against Penn State in 2021, it was like, man, that’s the hardest he’s ever worked to get carries. And it’s cause he’s not built like that. He’s not built for that type of running game. Quinchon Judkins is, but I don’t think Quinchon Judkins is built for what Trevion Henderson is, which is why I think Stefan on Saturday, we had moments where I think Quinchon had runs and we were like, Trevion was in the game. That’s a 60 yard touchdown. But there’s also plays this year.

Stephen Means (01:26:25.85)

where Trevion got two yards and Quinchan would have got seven. So perfect marriage, they’re together. Let me present some more names though. Cause I think Stefan sold on running back. I don’t think Andrew is. I don’t think Denzel Burke can be on this list cause it would have happened against Oregon. Very good football player. He’s got to avenge that before he can show up on a list like this.

Andrew (01:26:50.19)

He needs to play Oregon more than anybody else on this team needs to play Oregon again.

Stephen Means (01:26:54.362)

Yeah, but even Indiana’s got to go. He just needs to play a really good receiver again.

Andrew (01:26:59.044)

Yeah, but I think Oregon gives you that challenge more than India. Yeah.

Stephen Means (01:27:01.282)

Oregon, Indiana, I know, like Indiana’s got it. You got to get through Indiana to get to Oregon. So he just needs to get on the field with another, another receiver who can like the NFL scout can actually watch film of Denzel Burke and see what’s going on there. Cause I didn’t realize this. I was watching some post games for Oregon after the Ohio state game, the Thorpe award people were there. They were there to see Jabbar Mohammed, but it’s like, if Denzel Burke would have shut down Evan Stewart, they would have also been there to see Denzel Burke, which I’m sure they were all.

Andrew (01:27:05.646)

Yeah, for sure. For sure.

Andrew (01:27:11.184)

Test you. Yes.

Stephen Means (01:27:30.294)

There was a lot of good DBs in that Ohio State working game. So I’m sure they weren’t just there to see Jabbar Mohammed, but Jabbar Mohammed played well. Denzel Burke did not. They went to Jabbar Mohammed’s post game. Lathan Ransom, very good player. Don’t think he can be on this list because the injury history is there. Sonny Stiles, very good player. Don’t think he’s on this list this year. I think he’s high on this list a year from now. I think he should come back. Jack Sawyer and JT Tui Maloao, very good football players.

They’re not game wreckers. If you’re a defensive end that’s not a game wrecker, you can’t be on a valuable list.

Stephen Means (01:28:09.166)

Jayden Fielding.

Both of you rolled your eyes. Except, except, this is from one of our text from the 614 who actually put Jaden Fielding third on their list. We all remember Georgia and what could have been at Oregon this season may come down to him at some point this year.

Andrew (01:28:29.338)

Well, that argument holds a lot of weight. If Will Howard gets down a second earlier and they have a kick against Oregon, think that then you can be, then you might have a different case. just, but I’m not going to say most valuable right now because of a hypothetical that could happen. I’m not saying that that’s wrong. I just think that you would need a point of evidence in the past to say, wow.

Stephen Means (01:28:39.406)

Right.

Andrew (01:28:53.478)

This guy’s one of the most valuable players because XYZ and also the Oregon game. We won the game on a field goal or if Penn State scores at the goal line last week and Ohio State goes down and kicks a field goal and wins 23 to 20, then I think you’re having a conversation. I do not think you’re having a conversation right now.

Stephen Means (01:29:07.0)

Ohio said. Ohio City has had two games in the last four years where it ended on a field goal being made or missed.

Rose Bowl in 2021. Noah Rogals makes a field goal at the end. Now we all understand what CJ’s child, Jack Smith and Jigba did, but at the end of the day, came down to whether or not Joe Rogals can make a field goal or not for him to win that game. The very next year, it comes down to can Noah Rogals make a field goal? And he didn’t make a field goal. And it cost Ohio State a national championship. Literally, he makes that field goal. Ohio State does exactly what Georgia did to TCU and they won the national title. So I agree.

He’s probably 10 though for me because you’re right. It didn’t happen so far this year, but who says it’s not going to happen again in Indy the way that the way that game played out. I’m not going to be shocked if it comes down to whoever can make a field goal at the end of the game. I’m not going to be shocked if it happens in if they play Georgia or Texas or Alabama or I’m not going to say Tennessee. I think I’m going to end my list right there. Actually, that’s that’s and even Alabama. That’s more off brand than it was. If they play any other three other teams who are in the conversation for poor best teams in the country.

best team in the country, it could easily come down to a field goal. And we have not seen him do it yet. In a game, we’ve seen him in practice. And I remember at the Peach Bowl in 2022, when we were in there and practice, this dude made like a 60 yarder at one point. So we’ve seen it in practice, but we haven’t seen it in a game. And I don’t think it’s crazy to say Ohio State season comes down to whether or not Jayden Fielding can make a field goal or not. Cause even the Michigan one, Andrew, he made it.

Brian Day just called the timeout, which can psych out your freaking kicker, which is why he didn’t make it the second time. So I’m calling the timeout, which is why people call timeouts, because ice is your kicker. Brian Day ices on kicker, missing him last year. But I get it. just want to make the, I just want it to be on the lookout that like Jaden Fielding having to make a game winning field goal isn’t that crazy of a concept with football. I do understand that he doesn’t need to be on this list though.

Andrew (01:31:11.686)

No. Yeah, I wouldn’t have them on this list for that because it just hasn’t happened yet this year. And like, get it if I, but that’s what I’m saying. I, I, I I’m not putting them on the list because like, I’m not, I’m not going to put them on the list for something that might happen if that makes sense. Right. Like,

Stephen Means (01:31:18.852)

But that’s, yeah, that’s like part of cool.

Stephen Means (01:31:30.68)

You have Josh Friar on the list for something that might happen. He might get hurt.

Andrew (01:31:34.052)

Yeah, but I think Josh Fierce played well this year to the point where it’s like like that matters more than your kicker playing well like until it doesn’t. But we haven’t hit that until it doesn’t so.

Stephen Means (01:31:41.753)

Okay, so.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:31:44.686)

think my argument on the kicker here is he’s valuable. He’s not more valuable than nine players out of them. So that’s it.

Stephen Means (01:31:49.914)

Thank you. That’s the art. Yeah. Okay. want you, what I’m really, honestly, what I’m really doing here is I want Andrew to remember what he just said. I want him to remember that he just said that I can’t allow you to be valuable for something that hasn’t happened yet. I want you to remember that. Just remember you said that.

Andrew (01:31:49.996)

Yeah, that’s yeah. So well, the last

Andrew (01:32:04.846)

No, if they had if they had had to kick a game winning field goal against Oregon or Penn State, let’s talk kickers. Let’s let’s do it. But they just didn’t.

Stephen Means (01:32:11.106)

Okay, that’s fine. I just want…

Stefan Krajisnik (01:32:13.134)

He some important kicks again. I mean, he put them up seven late in the game.

Stephen Means (01:32:17.242)

Yeah, they scored six points in the second half and they were both field goals. Again, again, he technically did win them that game. Again, I want Andrew to just remember what he said. You cannot be valuable for something that is a hypothetical. I agree with you and it is a good point. Remember that. And Stefan, I want you remember what you just said. He is valuable.

Andrew (01:32:20.976)

Sure, yeah.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:32:42.798)

Yeah.

Stephen Means (01:32:46.158)

but he’s not more valuable than the guys ahead of him on this list. Now, now, now, let’s get back to where this all began. Let’s get down to business and defeat the Huns. Yeah.

Andrew (01:32:50.491)

So.

Andrew (01:32:54.872)

Yeah, that’s where I wanted to I wanted to just wrap it up because I think there’s one name to me. You said running back that like the running back like, you know, what is that? Like if you’re now you can’t obviously have them Quinn Sean Judgekins and Trevin Henderson. It’s just the running game like the running back position. Well, because I think two people are greater than one like I think it would have to be like I think would have to be like the number one running back there running back on the field at the same time versus.

Stephen Means (01:33:04.654)

Okay.

Stephen Means (01:33:11.96)

Why not? We just did Josh Farr and Tyler Williams that way.

Andrew (01:33:22.928)

somebody else. And I’m not even saying I disagree. just think the only argument like if we’re to go Cody Simon, I’m good with that. That’s fine at eight. The question for me would be a Mecca at nine. Like is a Mecca more valuable to this team? And I think it goes into what I said about Jeremiah Smith, where it’s this team, their strength is throwing the ball because their strength, their receivers and their receivers are

Stephen Means (01:33:29.219)

Okay.

Stephen Means (01:33:33.315)

Okay.

Andrew (01:33:48.666)

better than everybody else’s in the country. I mean, better than everybody else’s receivers and better than everybody else’s DBs. So is a Mecca more valuable because of that than the running game? And I’m not even saying I think it’s a Mecca. I’m just, I want to know what you guys think. Cause I had a Mecca on here just because I think he’s good and he’s a really, really talented football player. That’s a borderline first round pick. And this is what you do well. And there’s, there’s a lot that goes into it. just,

I want to know what you guys think if that’s more valuable than the number one running back spot.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:34:23.71)

I I would agree with you in a lot of cases. think throwing a ball and using these receivers is Ohio State strength. I think Ohio State is hell bent on establishing the run in order to get the ball to their receiver sometimes. And that’s why I think the running backs might be.

Stephen Means (01:34:42.17)

The running backs are more important today. Ameca Bucca is more important in Indianapolis.

because there is something about this team getting indoors on a fast track where the weather is no longer a thing and you’re no longer Big 10 bound. And we saw what happened in the Georgia game.

It was like, what running game?

Andrew (01:35:10.202)

That yeah, that’s what I was going to say last year. We saw it all last year where we were just like, man, this team can’t get a yard on third and one. And I know that they’ve had some problems on short down on short yardage, but it’s not as bad as it was. And just adding a running game and running backs like that. So actually I, you know what, I’m good with that. You know, I’m good with the running backs. I I’m good with the running backs being in that spot, just because when you pair them together, they give it a different dimension.

Stephen Means (01:35:29.634)

Okay. Yeah, I think if we do this, if we were to do this before the Oregon game, think I would lean to Mecca because

I’m wondering if Ohio State’s going to get indoors and start launching that thing all over the place.

And that doesn’t mean neglect the running. Like they just didn’t try to run the ball against Georgia. They ran it enough so people, so that people could say, they tried to run the ball, but they genuinely just kind of said, hey CJ, Marvin, Ameka, time to let that bad boy fly. But for now it’s gotta be the running man. So let’s get back and let’s figure it out. Number one and number two, Caleb Downs and Donovan Jackson.

Here’s why I said that you guys need to remember what you said because Stefan what you just said about Jayden Fielding applies here Donovan Jackson is valuable. He’s not more valuable than Caleb Dallas Andrew what you just said about how you cannot allow someone on the list based off a hypothetical and the hypothetical with Donovan Jackson because the whole case with him is what if he goes down well, that’s a hypothetical because he’s not hurt as

As of recording this Wednesday afternoon, we’re going to talk with the players Wednesday afternoon. No one is expecting to go on there and hear and have any inclination that well, not even Jackson just got abducted by no one’s expecting that we’re expecting on the Jackson to be full go and go on Saturday. We’re expecting that every week until told otherwise, which makes his case hypothetical. Caleb Downs, his case is not hypothetical. He is the best. He might be the best player on this team.

Stephen Means (01:37:11.278)

He is the best safety in America and he is no longer the cherry on top of what could have been an historic defense. He is the reason why this is a good defense and he is like saving this defense at times while also making plays that only Caleb Downs can make. So when you combine the idea of what happens if you don’t have them with look what he is giving you, he is the epitome of the term

valuable to Ohio State.

Andrew (01:37:46.938)

me to retort. When you said, Andrew, you said you can’t say something on a hypothetical. It’s what if Donovan Jackson gets hurt? Well, Josh Simmons has already gotten hurt. That’s a thing that happened. And Donovan Jackson stepping into that role is reality. And Donovan Jackson being able to at least like not fall all over himself in that role is reality.

Stephen Means (01:37:48.334)

Go ahead,

Stephen Means (01:38:00.324)

That’s true. That’s reality.

Andrew (01:38:13.806)

Like I think you can debate what, okay, maybe they should chip more. You know, maybe Donovan Jackson would get better. It was a tough edge rusher, but Donovan Jackson. like even no matter which way you slice it, whether you think he played really well, whether you think he still needs to get better, whatever the fact that you have him there to play is valuable in and of itself. Like, I, like, I understand what you’re saying about like if Donovan Jackson gets hurt, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, Donovan Jackson has already filled in for somebody getting hurt.

We know this to be true. We know this is fact. So for me, that’s why I think Donovan Jackson still is number one. No, we know we already know that somebody has gotten hurt. Like we already know that Josh Simmons has gotten hurt. Like there’s a history that Josh Simmons is down that that is in history that John event that excuse me, that Josh Simmons is out. He’s not going to play this year. And with Donovan, he’s been the guy who stepped in and had to fill that role and.

Stephen Means (01:38:49.23)

Wait, did you say he has a history of getting hurt? No, he doesn’t.

Stephen Means (01:38:55.158)

yeah.

Andrew (01:39:12.826)

Like I said with the dam example where he’s just kind of like, in place, filling the dam, that matters. Donovan? He is healthy currently, far as I’m aware.

Stephen Means (01:39:14.564)

So he’s healthy.

So he is healthy, he’s healthy, yeah. Okay, so his non-healthiness is the head of the family.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:39:25.216)

A pounds is also healthy currently. mean, we can’t pretend like the safety depth is great either.

Stephen Means (01:39:30.254)

Yeah. It’s not. And again, I…

Stefan Krajisnik (01:39:35.608)

I think our textures are right here. I think it’s killed now.

Stephen Means (01:39:37.144)

Yeah, I didn’t think I was going to go this direction, but here we are. I think Andrew, you make a point, but here’s where you lost the case when you called Donovan Jackson the spare tire, when Caleb Downs has an engine. You can still get home on a spare tire and then you go get a new tire. If your engine is shot, you might not be able to drive the car.

Stephen Means (01:39:59.738)

Like someone has to come pick you up if you shoot your engine.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:40:05.294)

Kaleb Downs is maybe the biggest game changing safety we’ve seen in a while.

Stephen Means (01:40:12.002)

Like in college football. Like not just in Ohio State, in college football.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:40:19.598)

They need to just like, they need to just make a, like a, a label for his position because I think you say safety killed downs and I’m not saying this, what Andrew was doing. I just think people generally hear safety and you’re just like, all right, not that valuable. Like literally like those, those crazy names that come out of nowhere, like just call him the husky, call him the husky. And we’re all going to be like, we’re like, that dude’s a problem. Problem. They made a whole new position for him. No, it’s just, you know, he just killed doubts.

Stephen Means (01:40:31.716)

Yeah.

Andrew (01:40:34.64)

They need to just call it Rover.

Stephen Means (01:40:39.374)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Stephen Means (01:40:49.154)

Joe Klatt was making comparisons to Troy Palamalo.

So I’m sorry, it’s, the dude is, he’s the best safety in America, You can’t replace the best safety in America. The offensive line is important. Chip Kelly being here and finding ways to scheme around it, I think eases it a little bit. And it’s going to help Donovan. You still have to help Donovan Jackson.

You just gotta let Caleb go be Caleb. In the moment they let Caleb go be Caleb, Stefan and I went from, he’s not the most physically impressive dude, but I understand why he’s a five star, but to like, All right, well, we apologize.

Stefan Krajisnik (01:41:33.742)

Here’s something we need to remember when we do these lists. The poking holes in Donovan Jackson, we agree that he is the second most valuable, or at least we all agree that he is one of the two most valuable players on this team. That is not to say Donovan Jackson is not valuable. I think Steve and I and the Texers just think Caleb is more. Right, exactly.

Stephen Means (01:41:43.034)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Andrew (01:41:51.29)

Yeah, this is splitting hairs here to an extent, right? Yeah.

Stephen Means (01:41:53.678)

But I think it’s just like it’s coming down to Caleb Downs value was all about him Donovan Jackson’s value is 50 % about him and 50 % about everybody else around him And it’s fine. I think this is a solid list Caleb Downs number one Donovan Jackson number two Will Howard number three Jeremiah Smith number four Seth McLaughlin number five Josh Friar and Tylee Williams or Tylee Williams and Josh Friar at number six

Cody Simon at number eight. And then the combination of what running back one is in Ohio State now is number nine. Our vote, our texters list, Caleb Downs, Will Howard, Donovan Jackson, Jeremiah Smith, Tyleke Williams, Emeka Abouka, Josh Friar, and Cody Simon. I think it’s a fine list. Get the text, 614-350-3315. Let us know where we’re on base. Let us know where we’re off of base here. Two week free trial, 399 after that.

Game preview pod up next, previewing Ohio State and Purdue at noon on Big Ten on Saturday. For Andrew Gillis and Stefan Kreisnick, I’m Stephen Means. We’re all valuable here. And that was a valuable book I taught.