CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands and Chris Fedor discuss the MVP, the Defensive Player of the Year race, the Sixth Man of the Year and the Most Improved Player races.
Takeaways:
- Donovan Mitchell’s MVP candidacy is being overlooked.
- Team success impacts individual awards like MVP.
- Evan Mobley is a top contender for Defensive Player of the Year.
- Franz Wagner’s defensive impact is significant but debated.
- Defensive metrics can vary, affecting player rankings.
- Ty Jerome’s exclusion from the Sixth Man of the Year list raises eyebrows.
- Kenny Atkinson’s coaching has transformed the Cavaliers’ performance.
- Evan Mobley and Ty Jerome are key players in the Most Improved Player conversation.
- Recognition for players can be affected by team performance and depth.
- The conversation around awards is ongoing and can change as the season progresses.
- Kenny Atkinson is a frontrunner for Coach of the Year due to the team’s success.
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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.
Ethan Sands
What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. Chris, it feels weird. We’re getting more off days than I had anticipated over the last 17 games. Now you talk about everything that the Cavs have going on. The first 17 games being over the first 29 games.
The next 17 being over the next 43 days or 40 depending on if the Cavs make it to the NBA Cup Finals. There’s a lot to dissect, right? This is the first time that the Cavs are getting to do their own thing outside of playing games against opponents, which is interesting because when we talk about the training camp portion of it and these guys were excited.
to get onto that track and get to play against people that they aren’t already associated with. How important do you think this training camp slash practice time is for a team that is continuing to develop and continuing to try and get to their aspirations of a title contender?
Chris (01:24.238)
Well, that’s part of the reason, Ethan, why their start to the season going undefeated for the first 15 games was really, really impressive because, there were a lot of holdovers from last year’s team. 13 of the 14 regular roster players were brought back and that gave them a level of continuity. It gave them a level of familiarity, but it was also new stuff, new rotations, new lineup combinations, new offensive principles, new defensive principles.
And there were supposed to be growing pains. There were supposed to be some slip ups along the way. And I guess you could say that there were certain spots throughout the course of some of the games that they played in those 15 where the Cavs weren’t playing their best basketball, but it didn’t matter in totality. They were able to overcome that anyway. But usually teams that make coaching changes and do things in a different kind of way systematically
usually that doesn’t lead to, such a seamless transition. And it was seamless for the Cavs. And then you add onto the fact that it was such a condensed schedule that Kenny Atkinson was having to do different things as a coach, like part of his responsibility as the head coach of this team was to figure out, okay, when are we going to leave, these hotels to get to the arena? Are we going to do a walkthrough at the arena? Are we going to do a shoot around in the morning?
What are we going to do about practice? If we’re on the road in the middle of a road trip, do we stay one extra night in the city where we are, practice there and then leave or do we leave right away and get to the new spot so that we can get extra rest? And he had to map out the schedule in a different kind of way. So all of that is being thrown at him as a new coach. All of that is being thrown at him in this new role that he was stepping into.
with this new team all the while trying to implement these different things at both ends of the floor and all the while, you know, chasing a historic record from the Golden State Warriors of trying to go 24 and 0 to start the season. So it was a lot and that’s a long way of saying that this is really, really beneficial for the Cavs right now. This is really beneficial for Kenny. On one hand,
Chris (03:44.514)
Like he had slid into a routine, the team had slid into a routine and this kind of breaks that up a little bit, but it’s a needed break. It’s a welcome break. And this gives them an opportunity to work on end of game situations, to work on ATOs, to work on sideline out of bounds plays, to scrimmage one another at the end of practice to kind of get that competition going.
and work through different things that have been an issue for them, albeit through wins, problems that have arisen over the last 10 games, specifically on the defensive end of the floor and where they need to be spaced out and closeouts, all those different things that a team should theoretically have time for during the first month of the season that the Cavs have not had time for.
Ethan Sands (04:38.457)
And Chris, it’s so interesting that you mention ATOs and we’re not going to talk about that because again, we like getting nerdy on this podcast, but this is not one of those times, right? So might be, might be. But Kenny Atkinson walked into a press conference, a post game press conference with his little pad that he has with all the ATOs that he had ran in a game. And he had candidly said like,
Chris (04:49.528)
Yeah, it might be a little too nerdy there.
Ethan Sands (05:06.819)
I forget who asked it but someone was like what’s that and he said these are all the ATOs that I read and Me having the first question in postgame. I was like well we can talk about ATOs the entire time if you want to Like we want to know all those different things and what you’re working on obviously the Intangibles are huge in those aspects But I think we want to look bigger picture here and I’m looking really really big here Chris
This is going into the ESPN’s early season awards that they released earlier on Monday. And I think there are a lot that I have arguments with and there are things that I just think are downright disrespectful, right? So I’m gonna start from the top and we’re gonna work our way down. And I’m sorry to start with this Chris, but MVP, right? And we’ve talked about this a lot.
over my year of being here and where Donovan Mitchell is fair in these conversations and all these different things, right? And I can agree with AD or I can agree with the ESPN rankings for the top four, right? They have Nicole Leokich at number one, AD at number two, Jason Tatum at number three, Shay Gilders Alexander at number four. And then they lose me, Chris.
It’s hard for me to see a team that is one, not in contention. And we talk about this, we talk about this a lot, right Chris? This is a team, this is an award, MVP is an award that is based on individual statistics. But it has been weighed in, in the past, how the team is faring as a team statistically as well.
Right? So for me to see a guy like Giannis Antetokounmpo, sure, he is averaging the highest that he has in points per game in the season, right? All these different things. But the Milwaukee Bucks are in a lower tier than you would have expected them to be to start the season. That doesn’t make sense to me compared to a player like Donovan Mitchell, who we’ve talked about being an MVP candidate, who is simply not on this list.
Ethan Sands (07:34.407)
And that throws me off because you have Yana Santana and Stephen Curry who I agree should be on this list It just depends on where it is tied for fifth when it comes to the ESPN rankings and Chris Donovan Mitchell I know he might not be having the numbers that he’s had to to Start a season or to end a season that he may have wanted but the efficiency that he’s played at
the amount that he’s been able to empower players around him. And then talking about the 17-1 record, there are, let me think, two, maybe three teams that have three or more losses, right? Three or less losses in the NBA thus far, right? So you talk about how he has impacted winning.
Chris (08:10.808)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (08:31.214)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (08:31.685)
winning games and we’ve talked about how that has impacted this award in depth before. Chris, I know the Cavs are starting to get NBA recognition. They’re starting to get notice from other players, other teams, all these different things and they’re gonna get their best shot from all these different teams. Why? Why, why, why are the Cavs players that are creating this depth, creating this run?
not getting the decency of even being on these kind of lists.
Chris (09:07.342)
first of all, we’re only talking about one category right now. We’re talking about MVP. And the only one that you can make any kind of argument for is Donovan Mitchell, right? Because he’s the leader of the team. He’s the leading scorer for the team. He is the focal point of this roster. He’s their franchise player. But statistically, Ethan, he doesn’t stack up. And like, I know what you’re saying about their record. They’re 17 and one.
But 17-1 is a reflection of the team. It’s not primarily a reflection of Donovan and how great and impactful Donovan has been. So many of the conversations that we’ve had during this run for the Cavs is, who’s it going to be on a given night? Is it going to be Darius Garland? it going be Donovan Mitchell? Is it going to be Evan Mobley? Is it going to be Ty Jerome coming off the bench? Is it going to be Keris LaVert? You had the stat that…
In back-to-back games, there has yet to be somebody for the Cavs consecutively to lead this team in scoring. So this is a team first type thing. And a lot of the other teams that you talked about, a lot of the other players that you’ve talked about are clearly head and shoulders above Donovan in terms of production, in terms of impact. Every single number that a voter tends to look at.
the deep analytics that are supposed to determine a player’s value, a player’s impact on winning. Donovan’s just not there. And I think he’s going to run into a situation that Jason Tatum ran into last year for the Celtics. know, a lot of voters were saying, okay, how much is it really Jason Tatum when he’s on a stacked team and he’s playing alongside Jalen Brown and Kristaps Porzingis and Derek White and
and Drew Holliday and Al Horford, like the Celtics are great. They’re the best team in the NBA. At the time that we were having the conversation about what to do with MVP, it seemed like the Celtics were probably going to win the NBA championship. like, Jason Tatum wasn’t doing enough to stand out from the rest of his own team. And if you’re having a conversation of like,
Chris (11:29.226)
Is he even the best player, the most important player on his own team? Like, how could you make the argument that he’s a more valuable, more important player than Jokic, than Janic, than Luka, than Joellen Bede at the time? And like all these different guys that were in that same consideration. And I think Donovan’s probably going to run into the same kind of situation in terms of value over replacement player. He’s not in the top 20 in terms of estimated plus minus.
He’s outside the top 10, like in terms of offensive box plus minus. Jared Allen has a higher number than him. So like you just look at all these different, these different stats that are supposed to measure winning and nightly impact and stuff like that. And Donovan just doesn’t show up. Like he’s not having, he’s not having the best year of his career. He’s not doing enough.
to separate himself from, you know, Jokic, from Janis even, from some of these other guys, Sheikills, Alexander, that are also on this list that are probably going to get a little bit more consideration at this point in time. In saying that, it’s a long season and a bunch of different things can happen, but I just don’t think, I don’t think 17 and one is enough of a reflection on the
greatness and brilliance individually of Donovan so far this year that you give him the edge over some of those other guys.
Ethan Sands (13:10.041)
And I’m so glad you brought that up, Chris. Because now we get into the individual statistics of all these other players that have to do with this ranking. Right? And this is not no longer about the MVP race because I happen to be partially in agreement with you. Because there is… Partially, partially, yes. I do…
Chris (13:29.496)
partially But Yanis thing too, you brought up the Yanis thing I think a couple of things have to be pointed out here because we got to be fair about this Yanis is putting up huge numbers like he is doing things statistically that haven’t been done in multiple decades That’s first and foremost. The other thing the dirty little secret about Milwaukee Number one, they’ve won six of seven
Okay, so they’re on the rise, they’ve turned the corner, they’re starting to play a lot better. And during the time that they weren’t playing well, look, they had some slip ups along the way that were just baffling. Chicago, Brooklyn, but like four of their first eight losses were against either Cleveland or Boston. Like, you’re really gonna hold that against them? That they got off to such a terrible start when that was the schedule that they were dealing with?
So like, I think, and they played Cleveland really, really close by the way. And they played Boston pretty close, especially in the second meeting against the Celtics. So it was like an underlying thing where, yeah, Milwaukee wasn’t playing all that well and Giannis and Dame were trying to figure some things out. And Chris Middleton wasn’t out there and Doc Rivers was looking a little bit baffled at what to do with his rotations and his starting lineups and stuff like that.
but half of their losses at the beginning of the season came against the two best teams in the NBA and three of those losses were within two possessions. So, were they really underachieving that much? Again, the losses against Brooklyn and Chicago and Memphis and stuff like that, those are different conversations. But I think you see some positive regression here recently with Milwaukee in part.
Because of Yannis’s individual brilliance and in part because they’ve had a more favorable schedule as this as this season and as this month has gone
Ethan Sands (15:37.927)
And I also think that goes back to what we were talking about yesterday about how it’s different looking at the Cavs schedule. And you say, sure, in terms of what the analytics say, they have played teams that have been below 500. And then you mentioned the games that the Bucs have played, right? And that was at the time where they had played Boston and Cleveland, two of the best teams in the Eastern Conference, two of the best teams in the NBA by
Chris (15:59.714)
Ethan Sands (16:07.471)
by proxy, right? So that’s another thing. So you can’t take what the Cavs have done for granted either. I want to go on to, and I think you’re accurate. think Yohannes Atatokounmpo has been playing out of his mind, right? I don’t want to take anything away from him, but I’m saying what this award MVP to wrap this up has been is it’s always been, of course, an individual award, but it has also been based on
Chris (16:22.478)
Uh-huh.
Ethan Sands (16:36.529)
how successful the team has been as well, right? So if you’re telling me…
Chris (16:41.164)
Right. But there’s nuance to that. But there’s nuance to that. I mean, like, when the Warriors won 73 games that year, Steph was clearly the best player, the most impactful player in the entire NBA. Right? If Donovan was playing at that kind of level, where people had no choice,
Ethan Sands (16:45.253)
There is…
Chris (17:07.244)
but to vote for him in part because of the way that he was playing and in part because of the way that the team was playing, it would be a different conversation. But there are just like no numbers aside from 17-1, the Cavs record, which is a measure of team against team. There just aren’t enough numbers to support Donovan’s MVP case at this point.
Ethan Sands (17:30.759)
So let’s move on to the next category Chris. Let’s move on from this topic. I feel that we have a lot more to talk about. The next one is DPOY, Defensive Player of the Year. And ESPN, the first three again, I can, actually the first four, I can understand. Victor Webinyama, Anthony Davis, Draymond Green, Dyson Daniels. my goodness, how good he’s been on the Defend event. But that’s what I’m saying.
Chris (17:56.237)
he leads the league in steals. Yeah.
Ethan Sands (17:59.363)
And we talked about Darius and Donovan being in that conversation last year, but he’s been a head and shoulders above what they’ve been able to do so far. Then you look at tied for fifth place. It’s OGN and OBI and Franz Wagner. And then you look at tied for seventh place. It’s Evan Mobley and Jalen Sucks. So obviously I’m going to look at the two ahead of Evan Mobley, which is Franz Wagner and OGN and OBI. So Franz Wagner.
for this season averages 0.2 blocks per game and 1.7 steals per game. Oji Ananobe averages 0.7 blocks per game and 1.6 steals per game. Evan Mobley, 1.5 blocks per game, 0.9 steals per game. If you add all those numbers up, Evan Mobley comes out on top, right?
To me, what he’s been able to do on the defensive end for his team, obviously a team that we’ve talked about recently has not been great on the defensive end, right? But also a team that we’ve seen on X, Twitter, whatever you want to call it. There have been parlay’s that have been broken because of what Evan Mobley has done and not been credited for, right? So Evan Mobley.
Chris (19:17.794)
He he he.
Ethan Sands (19:28.485)
What he has done even without being credited for some of the other things that he has done has better numbers than the players ahead of him in the the tied for fifth range when it comes to the DPOI. Sure, I’ve said it and I will say it again on this podcast. Bigton Weminyama and Evan Mobley for the rest of their careers will be bouting for that DPOI award. But Chris
Chris (19:53.646)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (19:57.799)
Fron’s an OG, man. I don’t feel like, I mean, OG’s a different conversation. I feel like OG does belong in this conversation. Fron’s, I don’t feel like belongs in this conversation.
Chris (20:06.424)
Yeah.
Chris (20:10.552)
So you mentioned some of the numbers, but you only picked out some of the numbers. And I think that’s the complicated thing when it comes to voters or when it comes to this thing that ESPN is trying to do. Everybody has different numbers that they’re going to look at that they’re going to place a different value to. And some people may say, hey, like blocks, steals, rebounds, those kinds of counting numbers.
are really, really important when it comes to my vote. Other people might go a little bit deeper, right? They might look at defensive wind shares. They might look at, defensive box plus minus. I brought up Dunks and threes estimated plus minus defensive estimated plus minus. So yeah, some of those numbers are certainly favorable to Evan, especially when you’re talking about him against Franz or him against OG, but
Defensive wind shares, Franz is ahead of Evan. Believe it or not, he is. Wemby is ahead of Evan. Some of the other guys that you mentioned, Draymond Green, ahead of Evan. Defensive estimated plus minus, Evan is slightly ahead of Franz Wagner, but they’re both in the 98th percentile. So it’s almost negligible the difference between them.
you can look at defensive box plus minus, like I said, you can look at defensive wind shares. It’s, all about like what kinds of numbers do you value more? and there are some numbers out there that support the case of Franz Wagner and the kind of defensive player he is and the kind of impact he has. You’re sitting there laughing. He’s higher than Evan in defensive wind shares and defensive blocks plus minus.
and the Orlando Magic have a better overall defensive rating than the Cavs do. So you’re right, in terms of blocks and steals, you’re probably right in terms of contested shots, but in terms of the numbers that have been created to try and measure impact, like there are some that do support other guys, other that believe it or not.
Ethan Sands (22:07.431)
I ate.
Chris (22:25.24)
There are other players around the NBA that are also really, really good individual and team defenders that are going to get some recognition and they’re going to get some support from voters across the country. It’s not only going to be the Cavs, like it’s going to benefit the Cavs greatly that they’re going to have the record that they do. But I also think the other thing that Evan runs into, and I’m not saying that I’d put Franz ahead of Evan.
in this conversation right now, I’m just saying that it depends on the numbers that you look at and some numbers are going to support Franz more than Evan and some numbers are going to support Draymond Green more than Evan and stuff like that. I still think the thing that you can’t quantify is just the stuff that, that Evan does on a possession of possession basis and on a nightly basis, that allows the Cavs to construct their defense the kind of way that they do.
and the kind of chances that the perimeter guys can take because they know that Evan is back there and he’s the ultimate eraser and Evan can guard inside and outside and Evan can protect the rim as the lone five man or he can be the help defender, the weak side defender as the four man next to Jared Allen. There’s just so many different things that a coach can do schematically with a defense because of the brilliance.
the individual brilliance of Evan Mobley. if it’s me, I’m putting Evan in my top three. There’s no doubt about that because I think he’s that level of an impactful defender. But it’s really, really close, I think, with him and Draymond Green as that third guy. I think Wembe and Anthony Davis are one too. I think Draymond and Evan are very, very close. I think Dyson Daniels has a strong case because of the things that he does. But like Atlanta is also a
really, really bad defense. So I think that’s going to hurt him. The other conversation that is going to be had by voters when it comes to Evan specifically, Ethan, is it Jarrett? Is it Evan? And like, how do we parse through that conversation when trying to figure out who’s more responsible for the Cavs being a top 10 defense? And I think when you have two guys like that,
Chris (24:48.332)
They have a tendency to either steal votes for one another or voters can’t ultimately decide and say, all right, we’re going to go with Dyson Daniels. Right. Or they’re going to say, all right, we’re going to go with Franz because Franz is statistically the best defender on the third best defensive team. And all of the numbers support that enough. Or somebody is going to say, well,
It’s certainly not Steph Curry, Buddy Heal, Jonathan Kaminga, and some of these other dudes in Golden State, so it’s gonna be Draymond Green.
Ethan Sands (25:23.089)
So Chris, you, first of all, you continue to push me to my next topic when it comes to stealing votes from each other and all those different things. We’re going to get to that, I promise. But like I said, to start this topic when it comes to the DPOY, I agree with ESPN’s rating. Victor, Anthony, Draymond, Dyson, even Dyson has a legitimate case to be on this list, to be on
Above Evan Mobley, right? When it comes to and you talked about this and you mentioned it in your explanation and I agree with you when it comes to the to the defensive end no team Funnels offensive players to either Evan Mobley or Jared Allen other than a D and Victor women Yama, that’s it, right?
Chris (26:05.271)
Yeah.
Ethan Sands (26:20.059)
Like, and sure, you can say like those two are at the top of that list. Like you said, you take Victor and then Evan and then AD, whatever. I think there is contention when it comes to those different things. When you talk about how much Evan impacts the defensive end, we can go back to last night’s game and how he wasn’t credited for a block, but I can go back and watch the video and there were at least two that he had, right? So.
Chris (26:39.139)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (26:48.172)
Right. Right.
Ethan Sands (26:50.117)
different, different, different things that go on when it comes to NBA scales, NBA stats. But when you, and I’ve been watching how I met your mother, Chris, lately. throwing, great show. So throwing all the stats out the window, I’m gonna say pause and throw all the stats out the window and say pause and strictly talk basketball, talk hoops with you. Like Evan Mobley.
Chris (27:02.286)
Great show. Great show.
Ethan Sands (27:17.829)
When it comes to the defensive end, when it comes to stopping defenders, when it comes to players driving to the hole, seeing Evan Mobley and saying, uh-uh, I’m not taking my chances. There’s two players in the NBA, and I’ve mentioned them already on this podcast, that are above him or at the same caliber. Victor Wimminyama and Anthony Davis, and that’s it. And obviously if you want to throw Chet Holmgren in there, you can, sure. But…
He’s injured, that’s why this conversation has been a little bit different. But, with what Evan Mobley is able to do on the defensive end and then create offensively, it’s a different thing than what we talk about with all these other guys. Dyson Daniels, Draymond Green, all these other characteristics, right? But for me, when it comes to the layering of this, it’s gotta be Victor, AD, and then Evan, whichever way you wanna order it.
Chris (28:04.664)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (28:15.281)
Go ahead, but those are the top three when it comes to defensive efficiency, when it comes to defensive identity, when it comes to helping the team create wins on that end of the floor.
Chris (28:28.366)
Okay, so here’s my question. And again, I’m not saying that I’d have Franz ahead of Evan, but you seem to have a problem accepting the fact that Franz Wagner has been a really, really impactful defender for the Orlando Magic. So if you were a voter, how do you parse through this idea that Franz Wagner ranks higher than Evan Mobley in defensive wind shares
and defensive box plus minus and he’s in the same percentile as Evan Mobley in terms of estimated plus minus on the defensive end of the floor in terms of Dunks and threes. And if I could pull up D LeBron, which is not working right now for some reason, another nerdy stat that some of these voters use. If I pulled up D LeBron, I would think that Frans based on the other metrics would also be ahead of Evan. And it’s not just that he’s ahead of Evan in these categories.
He is top 10 in two of these and he’s top 20 in the other one. So like as a voter, how did you just ignore that combined with the fact that Orlando’s the third best defense in the NBA this year? Like, why will you not accept that France has a really good case? And the people that put this together are obviously using that data to support.
their argument here.
Ethan Sands (29:57.553)
So very smart people, very intelligent people, far more intelligent than I, right? Obviously, I’ve been in this game for two years. What do I know? Listen to me, listen to me not. But with what? And I feel like I’m counteracting what we said about this Cavalier defense with saying this, but look at what Franz Wagener has around him. Whether you have Jonathan Isaac, Wendell Carter Jr., KCP, right? All of those different players are defensively known. The only one that is probably more, more known for his offense than his defense in that lineup. Obviously we know Paulo Bencaro is out, could be returning shortly is Franz Wagner, right?
So sure their their defense is great. We’ve known them since the eastern conference first round last year where jaron allen joked It’s the first to 96 or whatever you said like we’ve known This is a team to be a defensive minded group. That’s why we thought potentially that either jp rick is that was going to end up in detroit or orlando. It was one of the two, right? so now thinking about how they impact winning right and obviously
Defensive win shares is a part of that and you’re absolutely right when you talk about the stats and like I said pause Chris throw that out of the window When you talk about the amount of games that they’ve been able to win the amount of games that they have been Questionable to win sure they had to adjust without Palo Amicaro on their line all these different things But and we have a lot more to discuss I’m sorry for people that are 30 minutes in and I’m have to listen to this but like this is
a team that is known for defense, right? And the Cavs are also known for defense, but it is because of Jared Allen and Evan Moley that they are known for that. It’s not because of Darius Garland, Donovan Mitchell, and whoever you want to throw in at that small forward position. It depends, right? If you throw Max Struce, they’re not. If you throw in Isaac or Dean Wade, it changes. But those are different things that I feel like we have to adjust to when it comes to this team. For me,
I’m gonna stick with what I said. It goes Victor, goes AD and then Evan Mobley. Depending on where you put it, those are the next two. Victor, and I’ve said this to begin the season, I’ve said it all year long, Victor and Evan Mobley are gonna compete for the DPOY for the rest of their lives, for the rest of their careers. But I wanna move on to the next topic because I feel like we’ve gotten into that at length, right?
And this is the one, my God, this is the one that I wanted to talk about anyway, Chris. Six player, six, I’m sorry, six man of the year. And.
Chris (32:54.414)
boy.
Ethan Sands (33:03.279)
I have to contain myself on this one, Chris. And I know you already got stats pulled up to counteract me, whatever it may be, but Todd Jerome is not even on this list. Karris LaVert is not even on this list. That is what throws me off. Not who’s on the list, who’s not, whatever. The list goes, Peyton Pritchard, Buddy Heald, Nas Reed, Bogdan Bogdanovich.
Miles McBride, Trey Mann, TJ McConnell, and Russell Westbrook. MPI. Six man of the year. Right? When you talk about all the things that go into that. Karris Laverne, Ty Jerome, impacting winning. Boston Celtics, right there with the Cavs. Second best record in the Eastern Conference. One of the best records in the NBA. Right? Ty Jerome.
has a blistering true shooting percentage of 73.6%. It is the best in the NBA coming into the games tonight, right? Minimum 100 field goal attempts. And then you talk about what he’s been able to do off the ball, defensively, all these different things. I know we talked about it earlier into the season, what Terris Levert has been able to do.
what hat he’s been able to impact, all these different things. He’s been out for a while. So I understand him not being on this list, but Todd Jerome was in the conversation for Eastern Conference player of the week this past week, Chris. And when we talk about recency bias, and I feel like there’s a little bit of that when it comes to this list, there’s no reason for him to not get a single vote. There’s no reason for him to not be on this list at all.
He’s had the best season of his career on the best team, arguably, in the NBA.
Chris (35:12.706)
Yeah, I was surprised that Ty wasn’t even on the list. I think part of it is he kind of was off the radar from the very beginning of the year and his more explosive eye catching games have come in the last week or so. You know, before that he was good, he was solid, he was steady, but there were some clunkers mixed in there. There were some low minute games mixed in there.
As the season has gone on, as we’ve gotten deeper into November here, his minutes are up in part because the Cavs have been missing some bodies and other guys have had to step up and he’s been thrust into a bigger role. He’s had a bigger opportunity in terms of shot attempts, terms of usage rate, in terms of touches, all that kind of stuff has come up more recently.
Whereas some of these other guys have been doing it since opening night basically at that same kind of level like Peyton Pritchard is Boston’s version of Ty Jerome Except for he’s done it a little bit more consistently. He’s done it a little bit better in certain areas higher points per game shooting percentages right around What ties are? workload right around
roll right around that same thing. So I think as the season continues to go on, if Ty continues to play off the bench the way that he has over the last week, week and a half, he’ll get some more notoriety. He’ll get some more love as these things progress into the quarter point of the season and then the halfway point of the season, then three quarters of the season as they continue to update these.
And it’s a running list as the season always goes on. Like I think there will be more recognition for Ty. It’s hard to quibble with Buddy Heald. Like he’s given Golden State a bench for the first time in a while. Like he has been a consistent performer for the most part off their bench. He has allowed Steph to not play as many minutes. Draymond to not play as many minutes.
Chris (37:33.718)
You know, Golden State has been one of the better teams in the NBA. So it’s hard to dismiss him. know, Tara Yeason has been one of the most impactful players in the NBA on a per minute basis. He doesn’t get a ton of notoriety. He doesn’t get a ton of consistency in terms of the minute department. And I don’t think a lot of people are paying all that much attention to Houston, but he’s a defensive menace.
He’s a really good rebounder. The impact numbers are really, really favorable to him. He’s up there in defensive wind shares. He’s up there in defensive box plus minus. He’s up there in value over replacement player. So tough to say that he’s not deserving of being on that list as well.
Nazred won the award last year, so of course he’s going to have that built in and he’s putting up pretty good numbers. I just think these things can be hard, right? You can only put so many guys on your ballot. And I think another thing that Ty and Karis are going to run into is they’re going to take votes from each other, most likely. Because the Cavs bench, the Cavs bench as a whole,
has been really, really productive. It’s been a strength of this team, strength in numbers. We’re going to celebrate depth. So it hasn’t only been like Ty Jerome that has stood out over the last week or so, it’s been Ty who has stepped to the forefront with these eye catching performances. But it’s a little bit different when you’re talking about Golden State, right? Like it is Buddy Heal. Like he is the sixth man for that team. He is the anchor.
of that second unit when it comes to the Cavs. Like are you going to argue for Karis Levert, Six Man of the Year, or are you going to argue for Tajiro? You can’t really argue for both when you can only fit three guys on your particular ballot for Six Man of the Year. So like it’s Ben Sam Merrill at times, it’s Ben Isaac Ikoro off the bench, it’s Ben Dean Wade off the bench. I think the Cavs, Ethan, are a team and people may not like this, but
Chris (39:53.92)
It’s more of a collective. And I think because it’s a collective approach to get to 17 in one, I think when it comes to these individual based awards, I think it’s going to be hard for the calves. And I think there’s going to be some pissed off members of this organization at various voters because individually, I just don’t think they’re going to get that kind of recognition because it’s more of like.
The sum is greater than the parts type setup for this team.
Ethan Sands (40:28.599)
And for all the listeners watching on YouTube, seeing that Chris is trying to struggle to stay up in his seat, he is sitting in a rocking chair. I want you to feel free to lay back and do your thing, homeboy. But.
Chris (40:44.04)
they’re all over the place here. Somebody took the chair and I don’t know where it ended up.
Ethan Sands (40:51.239)
But I know I known this before the podcast I was just trying to see if he was go pull it old man and start rocking during the podcast He did not even trying to stand bowlegged During the podcast but alright, so I have two I have two arguments for you Chris and we’re gonna we have another thing to move on to and that’ll be the last one but these are my two arguments for this one you mentioned Peyton Pritchard, right and obviously
I talked about coming into the game. I talked about going into the Boston South game. I was excited to see if he was gonna hit a buzzer beater, because that’s what he’s known for, right? But Ty Jerome plays 19 minutes a game. Peyton Pritchard, average entering tonight’s game, 27.4 minutes a game. Ty Jerome has better points per game. He has more assists per games, and he has a better field goal percentage per game.
right, along with, as we talked about earlier, a better overall team record. So if you’re doing more with less, I would think as a six man, that would make a more, a better case for you.
Chris (42:03.764)
he is not averaging more points per game than Peyton Pritchard. He is not. He’s having, averaging two points less than Peyton Pritchard. So that matters in this conversation. Okay.
Ethan Sands (42:09.731)
No, you’re right. You’re right. You’re right. You’re right. I apologize. You’re absolutely right. Payne Pritchard entering tonight’s game at 14.5, Tyrone at 12.6. My fault. That’s on me. That’s on me. But when it comes to Bogdanovic, why is Bogdanovic in this conversation when you talk about him playing four games entering tonight?
Chris (42:20.29)
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Chris (42:31.704)
Yeah.
Chris (42:36.654)
Yeah, I don’t get that one. Yeah, I don’t get that one. That one was surprising to me. Does not belong there yet.
Ethan Sands (42:41.349)
He has the, he he has 9 % of first place votes. He had five points. He was tied for fourth place in his voting by ESPN. Right? And this is where I, I like feel it as disrespect when it comes to the, when it comes to the Cavaliers and when it comes to like, they get national attention now. Sure. You are, you go on the best streak since the 24 and no going state warriors. You’re going to get that. Right. But
I feel like there’s not the individual basis that has led them to that because as you mentioned, it is a team game when it comes to this Cavaliers squad. They’re able to decipher between who needs to go, who needs to take a step back, all these different things. And that also talks about what you were talking about with Karris LaVeur and Ty Jerome taking scoring from each other, right?
Chris (43:22.018)
Hmm.
Ethan Sands (43:38.631)
And that kind of goes into the final category that I wanted to talk about when it comes to this ESPN list, which was most improved player. And obviously we have a couple of Cavaliers on this list, but do they deserve to be as low as they are? All these different things. Dyson Daniels, number one on this list, 33 % of first place votes. Jalen Williams, second on this list, 17 % of first place votes.
Cam Thomas, third place, 17 % of first place votes. Then you have Evan Mobley tied for fourth with 17 % of first place votes. And then Jalen Johnson, 10 points, Lamela Ball, eight points, 8 % of first place votes. And Ty Jerome tied with Kay Cunningham at 8 % of first place votes. And I think when you talk about most improved players, Chris.
Chris (44:36.142)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (44:37.051)
You think about injuries, think about players that weren’t able to do what they wanted to the previous season, all these different things. I went back as far as trying to figure out when the last time the NBA had a Comeback Player of the Year award. And that was back in the 1980s. So I’m over here trying to figure out what is going on with the ZSP analyst, all these different things.
And Ty Jerome being as low as he is playing two games last season. And, and, and, and let’s talk about this Ty Jerome and y’all can say I’m hyping them, whatever you want. had a very small sample size coming in. has been a surprise to me what he has been able to do as it has been to even Kenny Atkinson on the offensive end. So blame me or blame the head coach. One of the two figure it out. Anyway, Ty Jerome.
Chris (45:22.221)
Yes.
Ethan Sands (45:32.827)
Being able to do what he has done, coming off of playing two games and only a part of the second game of last season, and then coming in and saying, okay, it doesn’t matter what role I’m in. You can throw me in and be able to be one of the most impactful players on the Cavs when needed, right? And that’s why a need basis. You talk about all these other players on this list, and I understand why, again, why the top of the list is what the top of the list is.
Dyson Daniels, Jalen Williams, Evan Mobley, not so sure about Cam Thomas. I feel like Cam Thomas was supposed to have this kind of role. But Ty Jerome playing just two games last year, six out to me. And most improved, come back, whatever you want to call it, being able to raise your level to a different tier than what you had played at. Ty Jerome hasn’t played in, I believe, 60 or more games in the season.
in his entire career. So we’ll have to wait and see if he’s able to obtain this stretch of his career, what he’s been able to do to start the season. But in the entire season, Ty Jerome entering the season, sorry, Ty Jerome has scored 20 or more points just six times in his career. He scored 20 or more times, 20 or more points, four different times in the last two.
Weeks like if that doesn’t scream out to you most improved and I don’t know When this espn article was written it could have been written last week could have been written today and scheduled for the morning whatever might have happened But like when you talk about what ty jerome has done for this cavalier’s team I don’t care and this is the question that I wanted to talk about in a separate podcast chris But we’re gonna have to talk about it now How many award competitions when it comes to six man?
most improved, all those different things, should Ty Jerome be in when it comes to his improved play this season?
Chris (47:39.576)
Well look, he’s on this list for most improved Ethan. He’s among these guys. He also got 8 % of first place votes. So it does feel like there is some level of appreciation for what Ty has been able to do and rightfully so. You mentioned it. I don’t know the right way to vote for most improved player. I’m still learning that as a voter.
I don’t know if you take a guy who’s been terrible throughout the course of his career and then he just becomes like marginally good. I don’t know if you hold it against guys who are top five picks because there’s just like a natural progression and a natural evolution that they probably go through. So I don’t know the right way to vote for most improved, but it does feel like Ty belongs in this conversation because
He was a journeyman backup barely rotation player throughout the course of his career. Before this year, like that’s the role that he had. He was on a two way contract with the Golden State Warriors a couple of years ago. Think about that, a two way with the Warriors. After being a first round pick and just not finding a home in the NBA and not finding.
a consistent role in the NBA. And I do think there’s some level of, and Kenny Atkinson brought this up earlier this week when talking about Ty, Ethan, there’s this level of, okay, cool. You’re doing it at a high level, but it’s September training camp. Okay, cool. You’re doing it at a high level, but it’s pre-season. All right.
It’s carried over to the regular season now. But… It’s not even 20 games into the year. It’s not even December yet. You know what I mean? Like, I think there’s that element of… How real is this? Is this a mirage? Is this a flash in the pan? Or is Ty Jerome just a different player? Who’s thriving with this opportunity? Who’s thriving in the system? Who has a different level of confidence?
Chris (50:02.786)
who has renewed health. So I think there is that element of wonder around the NBA when it comes to Ty. But I think it’s a good sign for him that he’s already on this list, that he’s already getting some level of recognition because he does belong in the conversation for most improved player. Because like I said, this was a journeyman, a journeyman who has become a fixture of the every night rotation for the best team in the NBA.
journeyman who has become an integral piece of one of the most productive bench groups in the entire NBA. They aren’t this as a bench group without Ty Jerome, right? They aren’t this as a team without Ty Jerome. So he deserves recognition. He’s going to continue to get recognition provided he sustains the level of play that he has shown at
beginning of this season.
Ethan Sands (51:04.263)
And Chris, there’s one thing, there’s one cat-
Chris (51:06.552)
But like, but in saying all of that, like he’s not Jalen Williams from the Thunder. Like there are levels to this. There are different kinds of conversations and you might sit there and you could say, well, Jalen Williams has been a good player throughout his entire career. Well, he hasn’t been this level of good player. He’s logging career highs and points, rebounds, assists, blocks, steals. He’s playing center.
Ethan Sands (51:13.05)
Nope.
100%.
Chris (51:35.894)
At six foot six on one of the best teams of the Western Conference, he is a borderline all star. So yeah, he came into the NBA and there were a lot expected of him when he came into the NBA because he was a lottery pick and he had a good year last year and he helped Oklahoma City get to the postseason last year. But like he has taken the leap. He has taken a third year leap from good to borderline great from, you know,
guy on the rise who is ascending the way that you would expect of a lottery pick to he’s in the all-star conversation right now in the Western Conference. So we can’t just assume that every single lottery pick three years into their career, Ethan, is going to become an all-star. It doesn’t happen with every guy. And when it does happen with a guy, the way that it’s happening with Jalen Williams, I think it’s fair in my estimation.
to label him the front runner at this point. And it’s gonna be hard to chase him down, especially if he makes an All-Star team.
Ethan Sands (52:40.785)
Yes, and I agree with you Chris and obviously this is why every category I preface with there are guys Above these players that I understand why they are there, right? I did not say that Jdub should not be in this conversation. That would have been wild of me. I didn’t say that No, I said that Ty Jerome I believe to be higher in the category of where he stands, right? And obviously Evan Mobley is also in consideration. So again
Chris (52:50.028)
Yep. Yep. I agree.
Ethan Sands (53:10.577)
We have the same conversation of are you taking votes away from your teammate? Right and Evan Mobley is taking me jump that Everybody wanted to see did not know if it was going to happen, but the expectation was there right so that does that take away partially from what he’s been able to accomplish right in Again, and I want to end it this way. Well before I get into the last
very last category that I think the ESPN actually got right is that Evan Mobley and like we’ve talked about for this entirety, the entirety of this podcast, there is an element of individual statistics, right? And then when we talk about the awards that have been won in the past, obviously it is extremely early. We are not 20 games in. We’re arguing about things that could change in the next couple of days, but
The the fact that Evan Mobley, Ty Jerome, Donovan Mitchell, whatever category you want to argue about is a part of the best record team in the NBA, best arguable team in the NBA, whoever you’re talking to. I feel like this team continues to show itself as one of the upper echelons of the NBA. And if you’re saying that this this these awards.
don’t manifest itself based on the teams that they have been a part of in the past, I feel like that wouldn’t be accurate. But the last thing that I wanna talk about when it comes to the ESPN awards, and I feel like it has to be mentioned because it’s accurate, is where the Coach of the Year award lies. Kenny Atkinson is at the top of this list, 100 % of first place votes.
60 points. And when you talk about what you’re able to do when you make franchise history, when you make NBA history, when it comes to the best start for a coach in a new system and a new franchise, that’s where you’re supposed to be. I feel like there shouldn’t be any arguments for that one there, Chris.
Chris (55:21.623)
Even.
Chris (55:25.482)
No, there’s not. I mean, this is a no brainer. This is as no brainer as it gets. mean, he fits. I don’t know how every voter approaches this particular award, but if we look back on recent history and the criteria that people use, he fits like every single one of those. It usually goes to a coach on a team.
that is perceived as an overachiever. And you can sit here and you could say, well, the Cavs came into this season and they were a legitimate contender and they won 99 games in the previous two regular seasons and they made back to back playoff appearances. But like they’re at the top of the Eastern Conference. So again, there are levels to this. are differences. are layers to conversations and nuance to these kinds of conversations. Nobody across the NBA expected.
this. So the Cavs do fall into the category of overachieving team. So the coach is a big part of that. The other thing that people can look at is just the drastic difference that Kenny has made in terms of play style and in terms of success that the Cavs have had because this isn’t a situation where they went out and make a couple of blockbuster trades.
In the off seat, they’re not the New York Knicks here where they acquired McKell Bridges and Carl Anthony towns. And the evolution of the team or the growth of the team or the improvement from the team is more tied to the change in personnel. The only new player is a dude who can’t get minutes. Jalen Tyson, I guess you can make an argument that Ty Jerome is new because he only played in two games, 15 total minutes.
last year, so JB Biggerstaff didn’t technically have him, but he was on the roster. The only new guy is Jalen Tyson, who can’t get minutes on this team. So Kenny Atkinson is taking the same players from last year’s team, that, that hovered around 50 wins and is now on a pace that is very similar to the dynastic Golden State Warrior. That, that is the definition of overachieving.
Chris (57:49.65)
And you feel his influence on the team. So there just like, isn’t a conversation about, Hey, is it the coach? Is it the players? Like how much is Kenny Atkinson responsible for the Cavs being 17 and one at this point? The answer is a lot responsible for them being 17 and one, a lot responsible for them having the number one offense in the entire NBA. And so I think it’s Kenny, like I look at Kenny Atkinson and the coach of the year.
voting the same way that I look at the Boston Celtics, like good luck beating that team. Like good luck to anybody trying to chase down Kenny provided that the Cavs don’t have this, this complete and utter collapse, which, which I don’t expect them to have because I don’t think they’re set up. I don’t think they’re a team that is set up to have that kind of collapse. I think they are real. I think they are really, really good. And I think because of that.
They’re going to be right around the 60 win mark, maybe 55 to 60. And people are going to look and say, yeah, Kenny Atkinson is a big reason for that. Now there are other like people that you have to put on your ballot. I mean, how many people expected the Houston Rockets to be any good? They’re first place in their division right now. You know?
I don’t think you can look at that and say like, well, it’s a really talented team. So I expected them to be 12 and six through the first. No, I mean, I think you can look at Ime Udoka in the influence that he has had on that team, especially on the defensive end of the floor. Right. So he’s certainly in the conversation. you have to give some recognition to Joe Mazzullo, although that feels more like a talenty type thing than it does a coach thing.
JJ Reddick is a new coach, so he’s got the stench of that on him. And you know, if he takes the Lakers to the playoffs, a high profile team, say, well, you know, obviously there’s some kind of coaching influence there where he’s not Darwin ham and the changes that they made at the head coaching spot. That’s a good thing for the Lakers and look at.
Chris (01:00:11.362)
How JJ has gotten them to buy in and look at his fancy ATOs and stuff like that. Right. Like those things are going to be part of the conversation, but, none of those guys are Kenny Atkinson. Everybody else right now is playing for second when it comes to coach of the year.
Ethan Sands (01:00:30.135)
And for everybody listening, this is my preface. This is my pre warning at the very end of this podcast as it should be.
Chris (01:00:39.414)
Also, also by the way, do not sleep on JB Biggerstaff getting in the top three when it comes to coach of the year. Especially if he gets the Pistons, the Pistons with the league’s worst record in two straight years. If he gets them to like 35, a little bit below 500.
Ethan Sands (01:00:51.557)
Man.
Chris (01:01:09.528)
It’s going to be tough to overlook. He’s not going to win it, right? It’s going to take a lot for him to win it. But don’t be surprised if he creeps into the top three on ballots, especially if Detroit continues to play really, really hard and not be the doormat that the Pistons have been the last couple of years. mean, shoot right now, they’re in the play-in conversation.
Ethan Sands (01:01:33.639)
That’s what I was going to say next. That’s not us, not us, Chris, not us. But so, and that gets into what I was going to say to wrap up this podcast. If you listen to me and you go off based on my opinion and what I think on this, what I said on this show, great. I respect it. I appreciate it.
Chris (01:01:35.106)
Who saw that coming?
Ethan Sands (01:01:59.269)
I put a lot of work in and say what I do. I don’t just be spitting nonsense. I promise that. But Chris Fidor is the one that votes for Cleveland.com. So if you got money on the line, if you put in parlay’s in, if you want to go in and say, this is the early season prediction for awards, that’s the guy I would look at and listen to. Sure, I could end up be right, but.
I don’t wanna mess nobody’s money up, you know what I’m saying? also for listeners that want to contribute to a survey about the podcast where you can give your feedback, go to tinyurl.com backslash WG pod. That’s tinyurl.com backslash WG pod. With that being said,
That’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. But remember to become a CAS Insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. Sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.com backslash CAS and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. This is where you can send in your personal questions to us and we can respond to you directly to your phone or
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