Ranking the 5 best Cavs right now; Jameis Winston and the Browns’ 2025 QB room: Terry’s Talkin’ podcast

David Campbell (00:44.398)

Hey, welcome to the Thanksgiving week edition of the Terry’s talking podcast featuring Mr. Terry Pluto. I’m your host David Campbell. It’s Tuesday afternoon on Thanksgiving week. How’s it going, Terry? Hey, I was just looking at our calendar for it’s almost December already, man. it looks like we’re going to have podcasts the next few weeks. I was thinking we would take off on Christmasy, but I had an idea since we’re going to be putting a podcast up like around or maybe right before new year’s Eve.

Terry (01:01.173)

I’m doing well.

David Campbell (01:17.742)

What would you think of having listeners send in their 2025 Cleveland sports predictions? Things that people see happening with the Browns, Cavs, Guardians, about players, what the teams are going to do, anything that’s on your mind you think would make a good prediction. What do you think?

Terry (01:31.809)

Well, why not? I make predictions that look stupid. They could do it. I don’t mean that, but mean that’s what you’re always sure.

David Campbell (01:34.766)

I’ve made more than my share as well.

Yeah, so do this if you want to send one in and we’ll take them for the next few weeks You can just send those all to sports at cleveland.com our usual email address

Terry (01:45.473)

And how about also your favorite sports moment in 24?

David Campbell (01:51.146)

I like that. OK, so send in either and or either one or both your favorite 2024 sports moment and your prediction or predictions for 2025. Send those to sports at cleveland.com. Email us. Put Terry’s talking in the subject line and we’ll have some really good things to get into here as we get closer to the end of the year. So all right, Terry, real quick. You do have an appearance coming up on December 3rd, which is next week already, man. It’s next Tuesday.

Terry (02:17.793)

Mm-hmm, yep.

David Campbell (02:18.7)

that is going to be at the Willoughby Hills Library, right?

Terry (02:21.505)

Yes, it’s at 630. Yep. And it’s, it’s filling up pretty good. So that I was glad to see that. And, you know, just come on out. Oftentimes when you go to register on the library thing and it says it’s full, but you know, it’s like most things where 20 % don’t show up and then others get in. But I hope that I know it’s a pretty big room. So I hope that people will come. And besides that, that double your money back guarantee still holds.

David Campbell (02:23.167)

It is at 630.

David Campbell (02:50.99)

That’s right. And if you wanted to learn more about the event, it’s at we247.org It’s we247.org. You can sign up and learn more. all right So we got to start with the Cavaliers today, Terry Are you at all blown away? I mean, you’ve been following this team and covering them for a long time Do you ever just kind of stop and say? What is going on here? This is this is amazing. I mean, does it hit you what they’re doing yet? Or is it just kind of?

Terry (03:04.0)

Yes.

David Campbell (03:19.106)

You thought they might have a chance to do this with the talent they had.

Terry (03:21.139)

No, I mean who has a chance to win was it is a 17 out of 18 now? Yeah At any point in the season to win 17 out of 18 is remarkable much less to start it and also start it because that was the thing that it really didn’t strike me until Atkinson said it twice when they were 16 and 1 they played 17 games in 29 days, know, that’s usually a midseason schedule rather than early

David Campbell (03:23.982)

17 to 1, yeah.

Terry (03:51.195)

And to watch them go through that and not have a couple nights where they just looked like they weren’t all together. Cause they are good enough that even when they say they have a night where they don’t defend very well or something, seem to still have enough, not seem to, they do, they have enough to overcome it. Whether it’s Ty Jerome gets hot or they’ve had big games with Caris Levert along with the stars stepping up when they should. So it’s remarkable.

It’s fun to watch the chemistry is there of course when you’re winning you have chemistry, but One of the things if you’ve watched this team really from the start when JB got them going the first year They made the play on tournament all the way through they’ve never really turned on each other or any of that stuff

David Campbell (04:58.062)

So Terry, the Cavs are winning at a 94 % clip, which is insane to think about. And they’re on pace to go like 77 and five right now, which isn’t going to happen. Like you were just talking about this and NBA season is a long grind. There’s going to be injuries. The guys get sick every once in a while. Like it’s just crazy to even think about that, but it’s feasible that the Cavs franchise record for.

Terry (05:04.609)

Okay.

Terry (05:14.934)

Mm-hmm.

David Campbell (05:25.006)

wins in a season could be in jeopardy, right? think it was the 2008, 2009 team that went 66 and 16 and that’s doable, I think, right?

Terry (05:35.404)

Boy, I forgot all about that team and that was, they had like Ben Wallace on that team, know, LeBron naturally was on it. I think Sasha Pavlovich, it’s hard to remember who was even on that group. It was not a tremendous collection of talent. And I don’t remember that they were going for this. I think they finished wrong to get there.

I think they got knocked out in the second round or something like that in the playoffs.

David Campbell (06:08.45)

I’ll check that. Yeah, they lost in the Eastern Conference finals, I think, to Orlando that season. Is that right? Does that sound right to you? Yeah, they beat Detroit in the playoffs in four games. Then they beat Atlanta in the playoffs in four games. And then they lost to Orlando in six. Yeah.

Terry (06:17.101)

Yeah.

That’s right. They slept through the internal Lando. That’s correct. And Orlando now it’s coming back to me. Orlando had a tough seven game series that they won the seventh game. Then right away they faced Cleveland and they came into Cleveland and knocked them off in the first game. It just seemed like the cows were chasing him the rest of the time all the way through. And that was when, Dwight Howard, I believe was playing for Orlando then. And the cats had trouble defending the post.

Which then led the following year for them to go and bring in Shaquille O’Neal. You know, I’m here to bring a ring for the king. I remember that. You know, he was totally out of shape. He played, don’t know, 50 or 60 games and that great matchup that they’re trying to do to take out Orlando Dwight Howard. They didn’t even get that far. yeah, I forgot that team won 66 games though. goodness. And they blew through the first two rounds.

David Campbell (07:14.86)

Yeah, it’s crazy to think about some of the, some of the other guys on that, some of the guys in that Orlando team, Terry, Richard Lewis, Dwight Howard, as you mentioned, Jamir Nelson, Keith Bogans, Taran Lu and JJ Reddick. There’s some names for you.

Terry (07:18.402)

Yeah.

Terry (07:28.578)

Yeah.

Terry (07:32.97)

Yeah, they did. what was the cast team? Who was playing on that team?

David Campbell (07:38.092)

Yeah, let me get the full roster up here. can see who was what, but I think you named some of the key players. Daniel Gibson, JJ Hickson, Zydrunas Olgouskas. Yeah. You mentioned Sasha Pavlovich. Joe Smith, Wally Serbiak, Anderson Verizov, Ben Wallace, Delante West.

Terry (07:40.162)

Yeah.

Terry (07:48.696)

JJ Hickson, boy, I forgot about him. Forward, Yeah, Z was on the team. Sasha.

VZerbyak

David Campbell (08:05.179)

Mo Williams and Lorenzen Wright. some of the names on that team.

Terry (08:07.64)

Not a bad team, but not a team to expect to go 66 and 16. Mo Williams, picked up, he might’ve made the All-Star team that year. Delante West, poor Delante’s battled a lot of mental illness and problems in his career. He was pretty good that year. And I remember it was a smaller back court they had with him and Mo Williams, Zerbiak I think came off the bench some. It was a nice team. They played together, they really defended.

But 66 and 16, my goodness.

David Campbell (08:40.747)

Yeah, that was Mo Williams’ All-Star year and actually LeBron won MVP and he was also second and defensive player of the year voting that year, which is interesting. Well, anyway, do you think this record is in jeopardy? Terry, 66 and 16.

Terry (08:47.097)

yeah, he was great, so…

Terry (08:55.008)

I’m say no, that’s a lot of games to win and has no disrespect to these guys, but you have to, know, first of all, they shouldn’t be chasing 66 wins or 70 wins. They should be doing it what they’ve been doing so far, which is they’ve been using their bench, watching the minutes on the key guys and having your eye really on being ready for the middle of April when the whole playoff thing starts. So if they do that,

I know the year that in 2016, that was the year that Golden State started 24 and 0. I think that’s one of those, I believe Steve Kerr has said that in retrospect, he began to push it to keep the streak going and wishes he hadn’t. He thought it took a little too much out of his guys. So, who else to the calves? Yep.

David Campbell (09:48.398)

that was when they lost to the Cavs in 2016. All right. So Terry, you kind of shot me an email this morning about some things you were thinking about. this is a really interesting one. You said you wanted to rate the best five Cavs players in order. How they’re playing right now. I struggled with this.

Terry (09:59.874)

Mm-hmm.

Terry (10:03.65)

how they’re playing right now. This season, not overall. Yeah, I did too.

David Campbell (10:10.552)

So I’m gonna throw out who I had number one, which is Donovan Mitchell. Do you have him number one on your list? Okay.

Terry (10:16.882)

Yeah, yeah, because you could tell what he wants to be number one. just is. Okay.

David Campbell (10:20.802)

Yes. All right, who do you have number two?

Terry (10:24.63)

Granted it’s I’m biased in that direction. So who do you think it would be? Who do I love Jared Allen?

David Campbell (10:30.446)

Jared Allen? I had him number two also. Very interesting, yes. And I was interested in, I was looking up stats per 100 possessions, all right? And I found this really interesting. Jared Allen has the highest offensive rating on the team per 100 possessions, 143, which is, think the next highest is Isaac Okorah at 140.

Terry (10:34.338)

Did you really? Okay.

Terry (10:44.555)

Okay.

Terry (10:52.536)

Wow

Terry (10:58.648)

Yeah.

David Campbell (10:58.702)

Jared Allen also has the best defensive rating on the team for the guys who play at 107 and per per 100 possessions. And that’s a pretty stark discrepancy, 143 offense, 107 defense. So I put them at number two and you had them there too. Very interesting.

Terry (11:02.296)

in here.

Better than mobile then, huh?

Terry (11:13.238)

Yeah.

Yeah, I just have, I like his game and just to see, I mean, he made a play the other night. He blocked a shot and then ran all the way down and got the outlet pass and dunked it. And just that’s vintage Jared and Aladdin is best. okay. Who’d you have third? I struggled. I did too, but I almost put Garland there though, because I mean, Garland was playing great.

David Campbell (11:33.792)

I have Evan, I have Evan Mobley number three. Really? Okay.

Terry (11:43.044)

And they go, yeah, the game they lost, shot three for 20. Okay, fine. Mobley, his stats actually are not that much better than they were the year before. But it seems like he’s playing better.

David Campbell (12:03.342)

I have, yeah, give me a second here. I have him number three. And so this kind of pairs with what I was going to say at number four. Who do you have at number four? You said, okay, you just said Garland. I have Ty Jerome number four. And I’m going to tell you why it’s, it’s just something interesting that I found. So I was looking at the best lineups in the NBA. And I know you talk about this pretty frequently, Terry, but the Cavs have the number five.

Terry (12:03.416)

Can you check those?

Terry (12:11.062)

Yeah. Well, I got Garland.

Terry (12:16.811)

Okay.

Terry (12:23.904)

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

David Campbell (12:29.312)

most effective lineup, the number eight effective lineup and the number 15 most effective lineup in terms of plus minus. And again, it’s not a lot of minutes because we’re still fairly early in the season, but the number five lineup, the number eight lineup and the number 15 lineup have two guys in common. And the two guys are Evan Mobley and Jerome. They’re in all three of those units. They’re the only two guys.

Terry (12:35.073)

Okay.

Terry (12:38.967)

Yeah.

Terry (12:53.889)

Really?

David Campbell (12:58.754)

that are in all three of those units. And it goes back to what you’ve been writing, Terry, about Ty Jerome doing, and it’s what our Cavs reporter, Chris Feet on Ethan’s stand has been writing too. Like he comes in and he looks and sees like, what do we need? And he does different things every night, but he’s leading the NBA in three point shooting for crying out loud, Like over, what is it, 55 %? 54%, 54%.

Terry (13:07.063)

Yes.

Terry (13:11.884)

Mm-hmm.

Terry (13:18.539)

Yeah.

Terry (13:21.912)

I mean, a guy’s 38 % for a career. Just, yeah, that’s crazy.

David Campbell (13:27.758)

I had a hard time to choose between Ty Jerome at number four and Darius Garland at number five. The Boston game kind of did make me put him at number five, but I thought this was an interesting stat that Kenny Atkinson pointed out the other day that I think Darius Garland has run the 10th most mileage in the entire NBA this season. Yeah.

Terry (13:31.724)

Mm-hmm.

Terry (13:43.584)

Yeah, I try to find that somewhere. I could not find that online. I mean, I’m sure there are people with spat stat cast or whatever they do measures. Everything has that, but,

David Campbell (13:56.504)

So you have Garland at number four, and who’s your number five? OK, so we have them switched. Interesting. All right.

Terry (13:58.41)

Yeah, tie. Yeah. Yeah, we did the same five because really the fifth spot they’ve been alternating between because you don’t have screws. They’ve been alternating between O’Coro and Laverte. Laverte was playing really well until recently. the nice thing is we could look at these guys and it isn’t like you go, boy, one guy’s just been carrying this team.

They have one guy that can carry the team when needed, which is Mitchell, but he hasn’t had to carry the team.

David Campbell (14:34.572)

Which goes back to what you’re talking about, about not wearing your guys out in the regular season.

Terry (14:37.618)

Right. And then when he rolled back to that 66 and 16 team, mean, that was, I mean, really it was LeBron James and guys, nice role players, you know, starters, but Mo Williams made the team primarily that your All-Star team because he was playing with LeBron. And where this group, you’re back to like four of those guys can make an All-Star team.

know, Garland continues to play well. My guess is Allen and Mobley probably won’t, probably one of them will. And were you able to check on where Mobley’s stats were compared to?

David Campbell (15:18.638)

Yeah, I didn’t check on compared to last year, but I have this year’s he’s averaging in 17 games. He’s 17.6 points per game, points per game, 56.3 % from the field, 35.5 % from three. And he is averaging 8.9 rebounds, 2.6 assists and 1.5 blocks.

Terry (15:21.506)

Yeah.

Terry (15:38.72)

That’s about that’s very that’s very similar to a year ago shooting percentage is a little higher So you roll all that together the great thing is what the team keeps shooting 42 % Excuse me 52 % from the field and 42 on threes I wrote a long if you didn’t read it. I wrote a long story for the weekend kind of a All calves thing rarely do I take for example page two? Other what if you ever to see the print edition?

And dedicated all to one team, but I started doing all this calf stuff and I just kept going and going. So, after 1800 words, I just told them, we’ll just slap this all and make it page two. Cause it was everything from, Jalen Tyson coming off the bench to looking well to Garland running 10 miles, whatever that means. just, and the big thing was the 17 games in 29 days, winning 16 of those without.

beating your guys up in terms of minutes. that is a thing that we should be really impressed with and also impressed with how Kenny Atkinson continues to stay pretty true to his promise of playing 10 guys most nights. And you could look at this and Sam Merrill is not shooting as well as I think he would hope he would. Coral has been in and out of the lineup.

Well, Coral’s making quite a few shots. The challenge for a Coral, if you look last year, I think he shot about 38 % on threes, was in the playoffs he struggled. So that will be his next mountain to climb.

David Campbell (17:20.814)

Yeah, I just looking up his three point shooting percentage. 47.4 this season.

Terry (17:30.498)

Mm-hmm.

David Campbell (17:34.478)

So how are they doing this, Because they, well, they didn’t make any big moves, right? And they pretty much invested in what they had going and the new coach kind of elevating the whole operation. And things could not be going any better, but NBA fans love the off season because they like to pick and pick pieces and see how they would plug in. The Cavs didn’t really add much of anything except for having a healthy Ty Jerome and just changing the way they play, right?

Terry (17:37.472)

What do you say?

Terry (17:41.069)

Mm-hmm.

Terry (18:03.008)

Exactly. And also it’s kind of like a guard. They’re at the sort of the guardian stage. I mean, we all know here comes the winner. It’s going to be boring for the guardians. They might make a couple of moves as, as, Kobe Alton talked about maybe making moves on the margin. He didn’t even do that. and. But the way Jerome has played, which he’s never played with before, this would be like getting a premium six man. I’m for example, I got it.

Levert got a contract for I believe a 17.5 million. Let’s round it off to 18 million That is a two-year 36 million. I remember what he signed out a good friend of mine is an agent a top agent and he said to me he said Levert he goes actually I could have gotten Levert He wasn’t trying to steal and he goes I could have gotten him probably 50 to 60 million over three He says he really did the cast a favor. He must really have wanted to play there, which is what he said

He said, because a guy that caliber coming off the bench who can start some, you know, he’s a 15 to $20 million player. And he said on a team like Cleveland, you could push it up to 20.

Ty Jerome.

If he goes this whole year like this, Mr. Jerome’s going to be doing very well. And the other thing that you noticed about Jerome, because he played it Virginia under Tony Bennett, it was a very defensive minded share the ball, just a tough coach there. you see that in, the game of tie Jerome, Hunter who plays for Atlanta. think he’s still with them. He was a player I like. He was a Virginia player too. sometimes they say.

Terry (19:44.588)

The Virginia players got to watch draft and I’m high because they play so well together as a unit. They don’t, kind of hide each other’s flaws and, and don’t play quite as well in the NBA, but this is the year of Tyrone tied Jerome. What do you think?

David Campbell (19:59.63)

Let’s call it that. That’s great. It makes a good t-shirt.

Terry (20:01.142)

Just let’s go what it is. Let’s just say it. Ty Jerome owns the NBA. All right. I’m even going a little farther. I am old enough to see Jerry West flight. I’m not comparing in the Jerry West. All right. But the way he kind of cocks his wrist and shoots the ball like that, almost a little flat footed more than a jumper. That’s the logo. That’s how Jerry West shot the ball. And this year he’s shooting it like Jerry West shot the ball. Now.

David Campbell (20:06.574)

you

Terry (20:31.16)

Had Jerry West played in the era of the three point line or whatever would be fascinating. Look at his stats sometime and stats in the finals. remember I interviewed Jerry West for my book, Tall Tales. And we talked for quite a while on different things that, you know, he grew up in Cabin Creek, West Virginia, which is just down the road from Charleston. And he said to me, you know, if I grew up saying a more affluent area or whatever, he goes, I would have been a golfer. And I’m like.

David Campbell (20:34.736)

man.

Terry (21:01.596)

Well, why Jerry? said, I was, I’m a, he goes, that could be a real solitary person. And he used to, there was apparently just some gravel area where he just went out and it was a basket, but it w you know, you used to imagine it. looked like West Virginia, you know, just this type of thing. This, bent rim against a wooden backboard and he’s on the gravel and he’s just shooting with, with no net or a stringy net.

And he just did hour after hour after hour. And that’s how he, you know, became a great shooter. but he just mentioned that he, as he got older, he loved to play golf too. by the way, for a while, I don’t know if he still did, he had a condo right around the Greenbrier. Yeah. He also plays in LA, but, and, and then also he just.

David Campbell (21:47.566)

really?

Terry (21:53.016)

talked about how he was just so tormented by losing to the Celtics all the time. I forgot how many times they lost in the finals, six or seven or something like that. Fascinating guy. And I remember he talked to some of the writers one of the years when LeBron was in the playoffs, but like maybe go into the finals with the Cavs. He hadn’t won a title yet, whenever that was. So it must’ve been maybe around…

that San Antonio series when he was here the first time saying that he understood how LeBron felt frustrated in this and the over emphasis on did you win a title to be a great player?

David Campbell (22:34.028)

Yeah, it’s not fair sometimes and.

Terry (22:35.36)

Yep. Cause he kept going, this young man is carrying that team. So I’m pretty sure it was the whole Sasha Pavel that’s group, you know, that went in, seven and, that, so he was a fascinating guy. And just remember when you’re seeing Tyrone, Ty Jerome shoot just the form now, nothing else. Well, of course it’s going in like Jerry West shot it too. That’s Jerry West, how he shot the ball.

David Campbell (23:01.228)

I Jerry West just passed away a few months ago, right? Yeah, yeah. And when you were talking about Jerry West, I was thinking about that All-Star game here a couple years ago, the 75th and the 75 all-time greatest players like that. When you lose people like Jerry West as time goes on, like those nights and the fact that that was in Cleveland, it’s something that was so special. And I think NBA fans who were watching and were there that night really just appreciate all the greatness that was in.

Terry (23:03.094)

Yes, he did.

Terry (23:21.612)

Yeah.

David Campbell (23:30.092)

field house that night and how cool that was.

Terry (23:30.456)

Here’s a strange thing happening as you know as I’ve gotten older and that where

I would have people to call and say, know, is my memory right about Jerry West and how he shot the ball or whatever? But most of them I know are not with us anymore. So I’m relying on my memory and it’s possible it’s wrong from when I was a kid and you would just see these games in on the weekends and black and white TV and that kind of stuff. So.

David Campbell (24:02.254)

So imagining Jerry West shooting with the modern NBA three pointer would have been crazy, Terry, but the game has changed so much and there’s more three pointers being taken than ever. And for a basketball purist like you, wanted to, do you like the way the game is going right now with the Celtics shooting, you know, it’s all threes and dunks and do you like what you’re seeing? What would you like to change?

Terry (24:06.2)

huh. Yeah.

Terry (24:11.746)

Mm-hmm.

Terry (24:18.36)

Ugh.

Terry (24:26.644)

No, no, I, I liked the three point shot. was always a big advocate. My goodness. wrote a book on the ABA. I love the three point shot. Yes. Yeah. Certainly online still sells this one since came out in 1989, but the, I was talking with Wayne Emory about this about a year ago and he was saying, could now he’s a big man. You know, they’d say they’re forgetting the big man or whatever. tend to agree, but this whole thing that

David Campbell (24:35.596)

Loose Balls, available at all your finer bookstores.

Terry (24:55.714)

drives you nuts, see a guy go right down the lane, he’s got to wide up a layup and throws it to the guy at the corner for a corner three. It just, I suppose maybe the analytics show that. The one thing the analytics don’t tell you, at least the ones that we find is what percentage of missed three pointers then become fast breaks down the other end of the court because they bang off the rim, those long rebounds, and you go down and take them and score.

But last year, the South East led the NBA by taking 42 three-pointers a game. This year, they’re up over 50. And just, ugh.

David Campbell (25:31.96)

So I have the list here, Terry, because I was interested in what it is. The Celtics are over 50. They’re 50.6 three-point attempts per game, which is nuts to think about. Charlotte’s number two, 44. The Bulls are three. Golden State’s number four. Minnesota’s five. We don’t need to the whole list. The Cavs are 13th.

Terry (25:33.932)

Go ahead.

Terry (25:39.242)

Okay. Okay. Yeah.

Terry (25:49.644)

How many are over 40?

David Campbell (25:53.454)

There are one, two, three, four, five, seven teams over 40. The number seven team is the Phoenix Suns at 40.8. So I thought the Cavs might be more dramatic than this. was looking it up. Last year they shot 36.8 per game and now they’re up to 37.1. So that’s not that much different.

Terry (25:56.83)

Ugh. Okay.

Yeah.

Terry (26:09.016)

It’s about what they’re shooting now, isn’t it?

Yeah, because actually that was one of the things I looked up but I didn’t use in that long never ending story for the weekend because it has different things in there. All right, here’s what I would do to try and make it more interesting. I would take away the corner three. In other words, I’d have the arc go around but it would go, it could still be the same distance from, you know, straight in, straight out. But instead it would go.

kind of all the way over to the baseline when it starts to go straight down the lane it would just the three point quarter three or whatever would cease to exist.

David Campbell (26:52.662)

be more like a true half circle than where they straighten it out along the side there for the short corner three. Okay.

Terry (26:56.296)

Yeah. Mm hmm. By the way, you know what else that corner in the obsession with the corners released to guys catching the ball step back and they step out of bounds. That happens about four times a game back in a hundred years ago when I was covering the NBA and this was at the old Coliseum and you’ll never see this because it was a we actually sat right next

to the Cavs bench, the three beat guys, Burt Gray, the point Dior, I was at the Beacon Journal and Joe Menzer from the New Herald. And I had the seat right next to basically where Lenny Wilkins stood, because they were really there, and the trainer, Gary Briggs. Briggs, whenever a guy would step on the, know, take that and step on the line, Briggs would always look over to say, you got to understand, they just painted those lines on the court there yesterday, those guys don’t know where it is.

We drove them nuts. Yeah, just drove them nuts. How could you not wear the lines in the corner? But then it was just the three point shot had been in for about, I think, five or six years by then. But they were just starting to get into a little bit of, let’s take a bunch of these. now I know they won’t do it because I think the NBA ratings are high and everything else. But the corner three is a shot. It’s about an 18 foot shot.

David Campbell (27:55.406)

We’re not used to it yet.

Terry (28:25.044)

So that’s what you get all that. And I still think that it’s fun to watch some of the big men try to operate underneath. It’s not like the 60s where you dribble it up, you throw out the chamber on the low post or whoever it is and everybody stands there. mean, not that kind of thing, but we’ve lost low post play and the ability to pass the ball to a in a low post is a lost art also.

David Campbell (28:49.614)

Yeah, and real quick before we move on, the Cavs have the number one, number 10, and number 16 players in the NBA this season in three-point percentage. Ty Jerome, number one at 544, number 10. You probably know who. Isaac O’Coro, 474. And then 16 is Karis Laverde at 458 is his three-point percentage.

Terry (29:06.348)

Yeah, it’s hard to say that, yeah. And then…

Caris was having a great year before this knee acted up. Kenny said some really interesting stuff about Laverte, because remember he had Laverte as a young player. And at that point, Laverte was just trying to, dun dun, who was Laverte’s college coach?

John B wine. That’s why I should have said that. Yeah, it was. he said, you know, in the past, Keris was so focused on kind of finding his way in the league that he would take the ball and just figure, I got to come off the bench and score no matter what. And while he had the ability to, help on the boards and rebound that and, and, and as it turned out, a very hidden away passing ability.

He was so fixated on scoring that, we never saw the full Keris Levert. It started to come out last season. Remember that where he was almost handling the point guard or point forward sometimes. And now he says Keris is just, he’s like a total player and Kenny, that means a lot to him because he was there with Keris in the beginning. Now Keris Levert and, and, and Jared Allen also played for Kenny in the Brooklyn days.

and they gave him a rousing endorsement. know that when Kobe was checking around. So there you go.

David Campbell (30:33.832)

Alright, well speaking of Karis Lavert, we’ll see when he’s going be back, but the Cavs have Wednesday, Friday, Sunday games coming up. They’ve got Atlanta Wednesday, Friday, and then Sunday they get the Celtics at the Rocket Mortgage Fieldhouse, which should be another fun one. We’ll see how they match up.

Terry (30:49.272)

I think before that game they should take away the three pointer from the corner so the Celtics can’t take a step out of bounds so they can’t just take all those shots.

David Campbell (30:53.89)

Yeah, or maybe take the pain off the lines. They can make them step out. Yeah. All right. Anything else on the Cavs, All right. Hey, let’s take a break right here. When we come back, I want to talk to you about how you see the 2025 Browns looking both at head coach, front office, and quarterback. We can start projecting that.

Terry (31:04.022)

That’ll do it on my end.

David Campbell (31:19.126)

and we’ll talk about what the win over Pittsburgh meant the other night. We’ll get into that and more when we return on Terry’s Talking.

David Campbell (32:25.666)

Hey, we’re back on Terry’s Talking. Don’t forget about Terry’s newsletter. You can sign up for it. It comes out every Wednesday. There’s some great stuff in there, behind the scenes things, topics that Terry’s thinking about, stories, things you won’t find on the website. Go to cleveland.com slash Pluto. There’s a two week free trial. Just go to the blue bar at the top of cleveland.com slash Pluto. You can sign up right there on the blue bar and you will enjoy it. So, all right, Terry, we are going to get into the Browns here.

Terry (32:51.947)

Mm-hmm.

David Campbell (32:53.676)

What did you think of that game Thursday night against Pittsburgh and the snow and

Terry (32:59.448)

Well, number one, well, great theater it just was for that. But I was so glad the Browns won because they showed up, they played well, know, those fans were into it. I didn’t, I was expecting the Steeler fans to take over the stadium. They didn’t. The Browns fans were there and till the end. And also you look at the fact that it was one of those same old Browns games, only it wasn’t.

David Campbell (33:18.286)

Till the end.

Terry (33:28.6)

What’s like was going to be, know, Jamis had the, the brain fart there and through that past that wrong, wrong way got picked off. And then the other time, he just, I don’t know, what did you make on the thing where he got blindsided? I was sort of hard for me to blame him on that one. Remember he went back to throw and just got belted.

David Campbell (33:47.096)

Yeah, was a man. was such a weird night. If you’ve never played in the snow, too, it’s a completely different animal. I don’t put a lot of stock in a lot of the stats from that game and some of the plays that happened because in the snow, things change. You can’t grip the ball right. The guys are slipping. But I thought Jameis Winston played just a really good, solid game.

Terry (33:54.295)

Yeah.

Terry (34:00.96)

No.

David Campbell (34:14.766)

Browns fans have to just be thinking like, geez, what if we had reasonable to good quarterback play from the beginning of the season? Would the Browns be around 500 instead of being three and eight?

Terry (34:26.008)

Yes is the answer to that. It’s yes. They are 500 with Jamis Winston and he’s played Baltimore, he’s played Pittsburgh, he’s played the Chargers and he’s actually played the Saints who are kind of going in the right direction but the other three are all winning teams. It’s not to make him Bernie Kozar or something but the answer is yes and that is the disturbing part.

Jameis can’t help himself who still throws 200 yards for 200 yards. Well, there’s good or bad. The other guy, Watson couldn’t throw 200 yards no matter what they did. And I’m not saying that’s the ultimate stat, but it’s meaningful because at least it shows you can get it downfield. So the answer is yes, they would have. Meantime, now the question is, well, first of all, David, what do you make it when you hear a couple of these national media people going,

David Campbell (35:00.974)

Regardless of the weather.

Terry (35:24.857)

Barry and Stefanski, they’re definitely coming back and there’s never been any doubt or…

David Campbell (35:31.598)

Well, I, we haven’t seen any substantive reporting that they’re definitely back or any, anything else. And so I’m trying to think about what the Haslams have on their minds these days watching this. And I think last Thursday made a good case to bring everybody back. So there’s a couple of reasons, right? They just signed the guys to an extension this summer and they’re only going to be one year into it. The second thing is, is you’ve talked about this, Terry, and you’ve written about it. The Haslams have made their millions and billions by

Terry (35:35.736)

Yeah.

Terry (35:51.224)

Mm-hmm.

David Campbell (36:01.41)

making bold moves. And I think they’re going to respect the Watson situation as failed as it is, as a bold move that this franchise tried. these, if you’re in business, you know, you, you, you try something bold and sometimes it works brilliantly and sometimes you fall on your face. And I think they’re going to understand that this was a bold move that has been a huge failure and like, let’s just move on and start fresh.

And I, that’s why I think Stefanski and Andrew Berry and everybody will be back. I don’t think the coaches are going to stay the same. think that some of the assistants are going to change definitely. Cause I think we’ve seen some drop off and some of the position groups this year. So anyway, that’s where I’m at with Stefanski and Andrew Berry and the Haslums. don’t know. What do you think of all that?

Terry (36:51.16)

Well, I’ll tell you this much, if I’m Kevin Stefanski, I’m certainly playing James several more games. It’s here’s what I want to show. My problem with Watson, without saying a word, we’re stuck with this. We’ve been trying for three years to make that thing work. It’s not, he’s hurt. As you mentioned, adequate quarterback play gives us a real chance to win.

And the easiest way to make that case is to show it and show it in some tough games coming up at Pittsburgh, at Denver. They still have to go to Cincinnati. They still have to go to Baltimore. I forgot who else they have on the schedule, but it’s not an easy schedule.

David Campbell (37:39.47)

Kansas City.

Terry (37:40.44)

Kansas City, correct. I think Miami is at home too. Miami is not terrible either, but just saying that they’ve got a rough schedule, but if you win a few more of those games, and it shows that Jameis was able to help them do that.

To me, a case closed. Now meantime, there are people saying lose them all and get the higher draft pick.

David Campbell (38:07.852)

I don’t even know what that means when fans say that, Terry, because we’ve seen this for a long time, right? The GM’s job is to structure the roster the way he sees fit, bringing in players, making trades. We’ve already seen the Braids, the Browns make some trades this year to move guys off that are not in their long-term plans. But when it comes to game day, the coaches and the coaching staff and the players are locked in on, we are going out there to win the game. We’re going to play as hard as we can. We’re going to prepare the best we can.

Terry (38:09.837)

Yeah.

David Campbell (38:37.294)

There’s like a line, there’s a line between roster building to tank or get a better draft pick. And like we’re going out to play on Sunday at one o’clock or Monday night in the Browns case this week, the players and the coaches are paid to go out and win. Like that’s their job. And there’s a huge line in between. So when fans say, the Browns are trying to lose, like, yes, the GM can do things to make winning less probable to help long-term planning, but the players and coaches do not go out and tank. just.

I don’t see that in the NFL.

Terry (39:08.948)

And also, James coming in being one the most unique personalities we’ve ever seen here and is never ending enthusiasm for everything.

It is infectious and it does.

David Campbell (39:24.418)

Did you see the video from the other day of him being mic’d up, Terry?

Terry (39:27.138)

For 13 minutes of just, I don’t, I was exhausted by the time just watching him encouraging people and all this. And the other thing, if you look online, see if you could find this, it was the 13 minutes of Janus Winston. You also hear the thought when he gets hit on some of these balls. mean, it really, mean, my back was hurting just listening to it.

David Campbell (39:48.45)

Yeah.

David Campbell (39:52.354)

Our colleague, Irie Harris, did put a post up on cleveland.com yesterday, here, James Winston. But he’s running out of a tunnel and he’s like, we’re here playing football on a Thursday night. Like everything excites the guy.

Terry (39:57.56)

Ugh.

Terry (40:01.624)

It’s a snow. Right. It’s like, and he’s up to every single lineman, you know, you’re holding up. You can do this, you know, all this stuff. And Betonio talked about that in his press conference the other day that the enthusiasm and it’s exactly what they need. Cause there was something about Watson and maybe just because of all he’s been through and his physical stuff. To me, he like a guy going to work, David.

Just going to work.

David Campbell (40:31.224)

Yeah. Okay. So we’ve kind of talked about the coach, the GM, the front office. You see, you see these guys coming back to right? Stefanski and Barry running back. Yes. Things change.

Terry (40:41.652)

as of now, but I will say this, if they lose, you got six games to go, what if they lose them all?

David Campbell (40:52.44)

then the discussion changes and how they lose them.

Terry (40:54.872)

Exactly. That’s why I’m always reluctant in these situations with this ownership group to make any predictions on this stuff. Because you know, just because they gave an extension, that doesn’t mean anything. And I’m pretty sure John Dorsey had received some kind of extension reward after the 2018 season and then turned, because he was hired late in 2017.

There’s like five games to go. Sasha Brown was fired. Dorsey came in. Then he, he ran the draft and, 18 and that was a year they were two, six and one, and they fired, Jackson and, Todd Haley promoted kitchenist, offensive coordinator, Greg Williams took over and they finished five and three with those guys. And so then, the following year, that’s where I think Dorsey, I think got a raise or something.

Then they went down to Freddy Kitchens Road, that whole thing fell apart. And then I remember the Kitchens got fired. And then like a or two later, Dorsey was fired. That surprised me. So that’s why you can’t just assume, because you did well the year before, and they even liked some of the players you picked or moves you made, that you’re safe. So my suggestion is to Kevin Stefanski, go win about three of these games.

David Campbell (42:19.662)

And beyond that, Terry, like we know when things, when coaches are holding back a team. mean, if you watch the Chicago Bears every week, and I haven’t seen them every single week, but there are plays where you’re like, what are they doing? The other day, they couldn’t decide between kicking a field goal and going for it. And they completely botched a fourth down play and that was coaching, right? So we’ll see over these last several games, if there’s coaching stuff that kind of starts raising alarm bells about whether they’re going to retain Kevin Stravinsky or not.

Terry (42:24.31)

Yeah.

Terry (42:31.394)

Mm-hmm.

Ugh.

Terry (42:38.68)

Mm-hmm.

Terry (42:45.654)

I I’m just, you know, I mean, your honor, evidence of pre Watson, post Watson, put it on a board, you know, point to one point to the other. guy can throw for 200 yards. This guy can’t help but throw over 200 yards. That guy really, he just had trouble finishing off and he drives and that stuff. This guy, he go, he’ll, he’ll have both teams driving down the field, but it’s going to be.

I mean, there is an entertaining element to it, but also who is lifting up those around, know, people, remember originally they were kind of deriding his line, I’m a man of increase, which is, I go to primarily an inner city church and that’s a line that’s used there a lot. You want to be a man of increase. In other words, you increase people around you with your personality, with how you are. And he’s a man of increase.

It’s funny, I had somebody send me a text and said, you know, hearken back to all his problems in Tampa Bay. And there were some ugly stuff there. And, you know, he got suspended and they go, you know, the guy’s just, he’s an awful person, this and that. And so I looked up and said, why is it then that New Orleans signed him to three different contracts? The first one was a million one, cause he was coming off the Tampa Bay stuff and really just, you know, hanging by a thread.

Then they signed him to a $5 million one-year contract. Then they signed him to a two-year $28 million contract with 20 million guaranteed. In the meantime, while he was there in New Orleans, he was voted by his teammates the Ed Block Courage Award, which has to do with your personality, being a great teammate, and so on. And now he’s here. The tough thing that happened with James twice, he was posed to start long-term for them. The first time, I think they were

foreign one or something like that and he suffered an ACL and finished the year and then another year he opened as a quarterback suffered a significant back injury and then I think he ended up losing the job to I forgot some veteran but it doesn’t matter but he I believe right now since he’s left the Tampa Bay I believe his record is something like

Terry (45:11.988)

Nine and six as a starter.

David Campbell (45:15.64)

Well, yeah, and his interception to TD ratio, think I had that a couple of weeks ago. It’s like 30 to 16 since he’s left Tampa Bay. Yeah. All right. So, all right. So here’s what I, this is how I think the Browns could set up their quarterback room next year. So, James Winston’s contract is up after this season. I think they need to bring him back. I think he’s projected to make about 2.2 as a unrestricted free agent. I would pay him more. I think he’s someone you want to keep around.

Terry (45:18.602)

Yeah, yeah, it’s, he’s better. Yeah. And so let’s see him. We’ll see some more of it. Okay. And go ahead.

Terry (45:31.637)

Okay.

Terry (45:43.19)

You can’t do it Joe Flacco again. You can’t let the guy that was I know Flacco, you know, maybe you he got exposed by playing too much with the Colts or whatever. Fine. But you know one thing, if you need a good month from Joe Flacco, they could pull him off the bench now and he would give him a good two or three games. Don’t do this.

David Campbell (45:45.335)

Yeah.

David Campbell (46:01.88)

Jamis Winston is experienced, durable, good guy to have in the locker room for all the reasons you just explained. anyway, bring him back. So they’re going to do what they’re going to do with Tashaun Watson. I think it’s reasonable for them to expect them to keep him on the roster in some capacity. But here’s what I’m talking about layering quarterbacks. I think I mentioned this last week of the week before. Here’s who I think, here’s a guy I think they should look at for drafting. right. Drew Aller, the quarterback at Penn State.

Medina high school standout, one of the top quarterbacks in the country coming out of high school and five star recruit goes to Penn state where offensive football players go to have their careers die. Right. They have no receivers. They, nobody gets open and drew Aller fits this profile that I think Andrew Berry looks for of former five star recruits who had something like go awry, like an injury or a bad coaching situation.

Terry (46:45.1)

Yeah, yeah.

David Campbell (47:01.26)

And the productivity maybe wasn’t there that you would see from a lot of other top draft picks, but the talent is there. just think Drew Aller, he’s finishing his third year. He’s going to be eligible for the draft. And the other thing is they, they could get him. I’ve seen everything from him going in the first round of the third round. So I don’t know how that’s going to play out, but I think he’s a guy who might be undervalued because his production has been so sporadic. And I think the Brown should find him or somebody like him. He’s he just the five star thing.

Terry (47:23.0)

Mm-hmm.

David Campbell (47:30.58)

He gets what the Browns are. think he’s got a cannon for an arm. He’s better than he’s showing at Penn State because of the people around him. And I think the Browns could get him at a reasonable place.

Terry (47:38.296)

I’ve not I’ve not seen enough to have an opinion to have an opinion. I like the idea though the general concept of you know, make a value pick Why not I Mean we’ll talk a lot more about Watson as it gets closer But I have real strong feelings about this there are times when you just say it didn’t work and and leaving it at that so what Yeah, yeah, that’s why I need to really get somebody to to

David Campbell (47:48.75)

Because they have other needs. They have other needs.

David Campbell (48:02.456)

Well, there might be financial reasons why they would need to keep him on the roster or whatever.

Terry (48:07.448)

who knows, I know some people that really do the cap well and I need them to really guide me through all the different alternatives. What have you thought in general about say just taking the last four games together?

David Campbell (48:22.676)

of Jameis Winston?

Terry (48:23.96)

Where does the team?

David Campbell (48:26.03)

I’m, you know, I, I like to put myself in a, in a Browns fan’s shoes. And after Thursday night, was like a joyous night. And how many times have we seen the Browns come out on a Thursday night at home? We saw it last year when Flacco was here and they play one of their best games of the season. You know, they’re on national TV. Everybody’s it’s the only game in town. They really care about that. And if I’m a Browns fan, I’m like, where is this in New Orleans and where is this when they’re on the road playing?

Terry (48:33.474)

Mm-hmm.

Terry (48:39.266)

Yeah.

Terry (48:51.627)

I know.

David Campbell (48:54.978)

you know, a not very good team on a Sunday at one, like if they could capture that intensity and that sense of purpose every week, or at least get close, who knows, right? Like that’s what I thought about. That’s what I thought about the last four games is what if they bring this prime time intensity every single time? like Miles Garrett went from having no stats one week against New Orleans to having one of his best games of the season.

on Thursday night against the Steelers. So it was just kind of indicative of kind of if I’m a Browns fan, I’m thinking about this team right now. How are you feeling?

Terry (49:32.664)

What do you think about Chop?

David Campbell (49:36.386)

I think he’s going to be good to keep on the roster maybe for another year, but they need, they need to get younger at the position and a little bit more explosive, but I like Nick job. What do you think?

Terry (49:46.008)

yeah, we do. Well, first of all, I just think it’s a miracle he’s playing. really do. I mean, two ACL, MCL, two operations within three months. It’s just, it’s incredible. He’s on the field and he’s still, he doesn’t have the same cut or speed, but he’ll blow people up physically. You know, and you see once a… Yeah, that’s right.

David Campbell (49:51.115)

for sure.

David Campbell (50:08.908)

Yeah, and it’s another thing, he’s getting better every week, think, Terry, and let’s see at the end of the season how we feel about him.

Terry (50:15.524)

You’re correct. They have to look in the running back room because Ford has not been healthy and he hasn’t just been so so when he has played and so that’s that’s it for me on the Browns.

David Campbell (50:28.11)

All right. I do want to get to a quick email here from Mark in Florida. says, Hey, Terry Baker Mayfield should be returning to the playoffs in consecutive years with the same team after signing a big contract. Yes. The what abouts as to why Baker isn’t here and why our Legion not the smoothest of relationships to be certain. Despite that the draft evaluators who saw upside and Baker were correct. There was no one in Berea who accurately assessed how to get Baker to the playoff level that would make his fourth trip to the playoffs.

since he’s been drafted. How many in his Browns draft class can say that? It’s true.

Terry (51:02.006)

Yeah, it’s absolutely true. And he will have done it. I would say without being on great teams, the 2020 Browns are not a great team and the Tampa Bay. This got some nice players and everything, but you know, you don’t jump up and down about those guys. It’s not like he walked into the chiefs and took over.

David Campbell (51:29.592)

We’re seeing what we saw here except just a more mature version. He’s still got a little edge to him and likes to rile up the fans and it’s just he’s not calling out the coaches Tampa Bay the way he did here. Yeah.

Terry (51:32.61)

Yeah.

Terry (51:40.926)

Yeah, he learned that. And that, that was one of the things that Todd Monk said he always appreciated about Jamis Winston even because he was with Monk, offensive coordinator for Baltimore. And, he mentioned in one of his interviews right before they played the Browns, cause he was with, he was with Jamis at Tampa Bay that he said, I love Jamis. He’s all about football. He never threw the coaches under the bus. That was his exact quote.

And he was happy to see Jamis getting, at that point, just getting a shot. Of course, then he turns around and Jamis just beats his Baltimore Ravens. This way it’s fun. I want to see them play these. They’ve got what? All three division opponents on the road. Correct? I want to see that. It’ll help me gauge the team more, but I know there’s folks out there saying lose them all drafted high and hang them high.

Which could happen if they lose them all they may be hanging some others high the way it operates in the NFL.

David Campbell (52:44.088)

All right, there’s the old Western movie portion of podcast. All right, let’s move to the Guardians real quick, Terry. did have Jack and Erie as a long time listener of the podcast. Jack writes in, he says, first of all, Terry, I want to thank you for your empty chair piece, which was your faith in UConn over the weekend. was just really some great material to think about around the holidays and what an empty chair can mean to us. So anyway, Jack continues, I also wanted to thank you for taking listener questions.

Terry (52:47.052)

Uh-huh.

Terry (52:59.266)

Thank you. Yeah.

David Campbell (53:12.962)

Many, if not most podcasts don’t do that. Happy Thanksgiving. I was thinking about Shane Bieber and that stream of consciousness extended into this. What happens to players who get injured while under contract and their contract expires? Does the union then pay for their rehab? Do they have to go to different physicians? And does it differ between leagues? Be well, Jack. So I don’t know the answer to this question, but I have an idea of how I suspect it works.

right. There’s like a league year, just like there is in the NFL and, and Shane Beaver was hurt on the job. And so as long as he’s under contract with the guardians, I think they partner with him on rehab and doctors and trainers and all that.

Terry (53:42.348)

Mm-hmm.

Terry (53:51.573)

The question is what happens now though? He’s not under contract because he’s going to be a free agent now the guy that actually would know the answer to that is Matthew Boyd because remember he had been hurt he had the surgery was with Detroit then became a free agent and he remained a free agent until The Guardian signed him in July and so he was working out himself now my guess is

These guys also have all these high powered agents. And if the union doesn’t have policies for them while they’re recovering, I’m sure the agents can get that or get the medical care taken care of in one way or another. But that’s a good question. I don’t know.

David Campbell (54:37.132)

But he’s been, you know, he had his surgery months ago. He’s rehabbing. I don’t think he’s having to pay for an operation out of his pocket or anything. I think at this point there’s doctors and trainers that he wants to work with. they’re with the guardians and his contract is up, I suspect he would just pay for those or maybe the guardians would because again, it was a work-related injury.

Terry (54:40.408)

Mm-hmm.

Terry (54:45.448)

No, no

Terry (54:56.248)

And also all these agencies that represent a lot of players, they have a bunch of medical people that they turn to to help their players conditioning all that stuff in the off season. So the problem is if you’re some poor guy in AA and gets hurt and get cut, maybe you have a good agent, maybe you don’t, but that’s, that’s the difficult part there. But Shane Beaver or like last year, Matthew Boyd.

There’s plenty of people there to take care of them. The question is, does Bieber come back?

David Campbell (55:32.866)

Yeah, one of the big questions of the off season. All right, let’s hear it. It’s an early prediction to get us going. Here we go.

Terry (55:37.534)

I will make a prediction. think he’s going to it. Shane Bieber, that’s right. Will get a contract of at least two years.

30 million plus.

David Campbell (55:51.02)

Really?

David Campbell (55:54.67)

Okay, marking that down is the first prediction.

Terry (55:56.148)

Okay, yeah, let’s see, because he had, let me see, he had the surgery in April, right? Yeah, I’ll go with that. Because somebody will say, he’s a great guy, he’s in tremendous shape, even if he goes back to throwing 91, remember that, he won 15 games in the ERA around three doing that, and I’ll take a chance on him. And especially if you’re a big market team, why not?

David Campbell (56:25.132)

And we’ve seen the last few years, Terry, the free agent market drags on and on and on into spring training now. somebody could wait, take a look at them and get close to the season, then sign them. Yeah.

Terry (56:30.674)

yeah.

Terry (56:34.732)

them I mean that might be that were the guardians rather than jump out in front of this wait to see because I’m not giving him 30 million for two but I believe a team will

David Campbell (56:45.974)

All right, I’m marking that one down. So all right, Terry, you have a long history and interest writing about Northeast Ohio College sports. I did want to mention John Carroll and Mount Union are playing in the Division three football playoffs on Saturday, which should be a really good game. And also you had a column this week about Daniel Robinson, the men’s basketball coach at Cleveland State signing a new contract. Some.

Terry (56:48.001)

Okay.

Terry (56:57.526)

Yes!

David Campbell (57:10.538)

impressive numbers he’s been putting up not just in the win-loss column either and it’s good that he’s got a new deal and is going to be staying with the Vikings.

Terry (57:17.228)

Yeah, he had two years left to go on his contract. So they gave him two more. Basically about the same amount of money he was making before. but you know, he’s average get one 20, exactly 21 gains each of the last two years. And he, and he took over for Dennis Gates. And when Gates left and went to Missouri, he took two of his best players with them, the boy Hodge and Trey go million. And actually that helped his first year.

Missouri, I believe they won 25 games and went to NCAA tournament. This past year, I think he was something like 10 and 24 and he went winless in the SEC. actually Gates could be a bit on the hot seat at Missouri. Meantime, Daniel Robinson came in. He had been an assistant at Kansas, Iowa State, excuse me, Iowa State. And then he, what helped him his first two years, he, a player from Iowa State who was a marginal starter.

and was actually even told by the head coach there that he probably wouldn’t start, in the future. Tristan in Aruna, he came with Danielle to Cleveland state and turned in one of the best players in the Horizon league. so that helped. And then he also found a guy in the junior college ranks named Tay Williams who came in and Tay Williams and Aruna are both in the G league and they both played two years and they help them win those 21 games. He doesn’t have anybody quite like that.

But, I think he’ll win, you know, probably more than he loses. Not easy at Cleveland state. was down at the building the other day when they, when they beat, Eastern Michigan. And I mean, I’ll tell you the woods, he said, or it’s just this big monster down there and it’s kind of falling apart. It’s grim. It’s a grim, grim deal. but on top of that, and this is something that Dennis Gates started, cause when Gates came in, the team GPA was barely above a 2.0 and Gates got

the well up over three, about a 3.2. Then it fell under three and Dan Robinson acted like they had a 10 game losing streak. mean, he just really went after these guys and they’re back to three point over the last four semesters are at 3.18. He’s had nine seniors. They’ve all graduated. And so in other words, and the same thing that Gates did, they’re winning with

Terry (59:43.704)

And we just say kind of blue collar players or guys that you find at basketball rummage sales, know, Juco kids, but these are not attitude headcases and anything of that sort. So, congratulations to Danielle. Granted, I went to Cleveland State, so I pay a little extra attention to them. And to me, they’re the vintage underdog.

David Campbell (01:00:04.046)

Yeah. And the, know, in this era of NIL Terry where players are, you know, college quarterbacks who are coming in or getting offered millions of dollars to play. I was looking at that you had, I think you have this in your column. His incentives are not just for making the NCAA tournament. mean, if a player, yeah, if a player makes the all horizon academic team, gets a 10, the coach gets a 10,000 bonus, $10,000 bonus. And which I think is the same he gets Robinson gets if they make the NCAA tournament, which.

Terry (01:00:07.298)

Yeah.

Terry (01:00:12.216)

Yeah, isn’t that something?

Terry (01:00:19.903)

A of them for it, yeah.

Terry (01:00:29.034)

If they make the NCAA tournament. Yeah.

David Campbell (01:00:33.74)

Yes, Cleveland State has a couple of guys who’ve gone through and gone to the G league and making the NBA from any Horizon league team is a long shot. So I think it’s really important and cool that the incentives are grade related and academic performance. Cause some of these players might go on to be coaches or lawyers or whatever down the road. And I think that the academic part of it, I watched some of these college football teams with the schedules and the expanded playoffs. Like when did they even go to class? Like it’s crazy to think about. So.

Terry (01:00:59.212)

I know. Yeah. And also there’s a thing called APR, Academic Progress Report. And they’re supposed to be having, Quezon State is a 1000, which is a perfect rating. In other words, they value not just what the GPA is, but are these guys on course to graduate on time? And so that’s another good thing too with them. And I know some of the other programs are doing a good job too. I’m not saying they’re not, but.

That has been one of the great things that I think the NCAA did was put in things like the academic progress report and some others put some pressure on these coaches and that to make sure that these kids do not just graduate, but hopefully graduate some with some decent courses and things that they can use later on.

David Campbell (01:01:51.502)

All right, and CSU is playing some games in Woodling Gym as part of their throwback games. So that seems like it’d be a great venue to see game. So head on down and see the Vikings. All right. I think we’re good, Terry. Anything else you want to mention?

Terry (01:01:56.022)

Mm-hmm.

Terry (01:02:06.636)

That’s it for me.

David Campbell (01:02:08.146)

All right, have a great Thanksgiving everybody. Terry, you are writing this week about how thankful you are for the readers. I don’t know if you want to talk about that for a second and what this week means to you and your faith column, which is coming out later this week.

Terry (01:02:21.624)

Well, I also just want to say without you, there’s no us, you being the readers, there’s no Dave Campbell or Terry or the rest of us would be doing something else. And there’s so many places now to go get material and you can, have plenty of choices and thank you for choosing us. Now it’s our job to give you reasons to continue to choose us, to give you the best coverage of Cleveland sports possible.

and to do it in a way that I think isn’t always just playing to say something as they say, have a hot take, get a reaction. I think we’re pretty good at avoiding that. And we have different opinions, but not just saying stuff to sound stupid and have people react. If we sound stupid, like, it’s an honest stupid. I guess that would be the way for that. And I am very, very grateful. I’ve been doing that in this market since 1980.

full-time and I just cannot be more blessed to be able to continue to do it. And also, mean, David, you’ve been a big help to me. Roberta’s been at my side for 50 years. She’s been reading my junk. How about that?

Of she just turned 31 years old, so that’s how you do it, guys. She started really young. I mean, she started typing. She really did start sometimes typing final copies of things on my typewriter, whether it was papers at Cleveland State or stories that I was submitting when I was still in college at different places. So, very, very grateful.

David Campbell (01:03:41.996)

Right. She started very young.

David Campbell (01:04:00.248)

Well, I’m thankful for you, Terry, and thankful that we’re able to do this once a week. And I really want to thank you, say thank you to the listeners. as Jack and Erie said earlier, this is the, we do the podcast, but it’s, the listeners podcast, like as much as it is something that we do. And we love to hear from you, sending your emails. We want to have you represented on here as often as we can. So, and we thank you for listening. Cause, there’s a lot of stuff going on every day. And the fact that you make time to listen to us a little bit every week really means a lot to us. So thank you. So.

All right, I think that’ll do it. Everybody, that’s the official closing. Have a great, wonderful Thanksgiving, everybody. We will talk to you next week. Check out Terry’s newsletter and we’ll see you next week on Terry’s Talkin’.

Terry (01:04:32.28)

That’s the official closing.