Is the Cavs’ defensive identity in question? Wine and Gold Talk podcast

Takeaways

• After 19 games, the Cavs are ranked 11th in defense.
• Point of attack defense is a major concern.
• Missing key players has affected defensive performance.
• The team needs to communicate more on defense.
• Fourth-quarter execution is crucial for the Cavs’ long-term success.
• Evan Mobley is becoming a focal point in late-game situations.
• De’Andre Hunter’s performance raises trade interest.
• The Cavs need to return to fundamental defensive principles.

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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.

Ethan Sands

What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. We’re coming to you after the Cavs’ second loss of the season 135-124 to the Atlanta Hawks. And Chris, as taking a word from Kenny Atkinson, it was a stinker, right? This team got up 19.

They got up to a lead as much as 19 in the first quarter. Then they kind of dwindled down. The energy got lost. The physicality got lost. All these different things. And we’ve talked about it from the start of this season. Defensive identity is what this team still wanted to lean on, even though they wanted to grow their offensive game. There have been defensive lapses. There’s been some things that we have seen that could have been better. All these different things. All this to say, it’s the second loss of the season.

There’s room to improve, but when it comes to the defensive slip-it, Chris, which area do you think is the most important for the Cavs to clean up?

Chris (01:13.304)

So here’s the reality, Ethan. It is November 27th and the Cavs no longer have a top 10 defense in the NBA. That’s just the way it is. They’re 11th right now. This is a team that prides itself on that end of the floor. The thing that I think stands out to me the most is the point of attack defense is just not good enough. There are guys that are beating defenders off the dribble, forcing the defense into help situations, forcing the defense into rotations.

And then once the point of attack breaks down, it’s a scramble mode and everybody is over helping. And I think that’s part of the reason why they’re giving up so many threes. There’s a part of it where, yeah, the Cavs want to funnel guards to their bigs. They have Jared Allen, they have Evan Mobley, but it can’t be like a security blanket for them. It can’t be this thought of.

Jared and Evan are going to take care of everything. Jared and Evan are going to erase our mistakes. Jared and Evan are going to cover up for our lapses on the perimeter. And look, part of this is the Cavs don’t have Karis LaVert. They don’t have Dean Wade. Both guys are out at the same time and it’s forcing other guys to play extended minutes that aren’t as good at the point of attack in terms of defensively.

The Cavs don’t have Max Drews who is tough, rugged, feisty on the defensive end of the floor for all the things that you want to say about whether or not they’re going to move forward with somebody else in the starting lineup, whether or not Isaac Ikoro has become a better, more impactful player. Max is tough. Max is physical. Max will get up in you. Max can be bothersome to opponents.

So missing three rotational wings during this stretch is playing a part in the defensive slippage. But to me, it all starts at the point of attack. Like they are horrendous against point guards. Like if you’re betting and you’re doing props, pick a point guard against the Cavs and pick the over for whatever it is. Damien Lillard, Trey Young, whoever it is. Point guards against the Cavs.

Chris (03:28.822)

are feasting and that’s because they’re just not good enough. They’re not sturdy enough at the point of attack and these guys are just breaking the paint a little bit too easy right now.

Ethan Sands (03:39.352)

And Chris, you talked about it. Like that goes into the over-helping that goes into all these other bigger picture things that Kenny Atkinson has mentioned. But it really does start with the point of attack defense. And tonight it felt like you would always know where the ball was going to end up. It was on one of the far sides of the court of the other side where the ball handler would dribble to. And then they would just…

draw two or three defenders to a help situation, and then they would kick it out to either the corner or to the wing of the side of the court. And it was Jalen Johnson, was Deandre Hunter, all these different guys showing themselves as perimeter players. But when you talk about how this team needs to grow on the defensive end, obviously you mentioned it, no longer a top 10 defense.

For me, it’s a trust thing. It’s a sloppiness thing as well, because even Kenny Atkinson said it, not to use the word soft, but they weren’t as good when it comes to switches as they need to be. And that leads to mismatches and over helps and all those different things. And for me, the biggest thing has been that it’s two different defenses against different teams, right? And as you need to have them, if there’s a team that shoots a lot from the perimeter, they have

that difficulty. And then when you have players that are more known for being in the paint, we’ve seen different instances where there’s been difficulties with them on the interior, not because of Jared Allen and Evan Mobley necessarily, but because there are guards getting into the painted area and those kinds of things. We talk about the Boston Celtics game when you talk about the over help. That was the first time we really mentioned that and how many threes they got up. That was the similar thing tonight against the Atlanta Hawks.

Chris (05:18.338)

Mm-hmm.

Ethan Sands (05:34.196)

Chris, I think when you talk about how this team is being coached and how this team is continuing to grow, it’s difficult to only look at what that has done, but also not including the three pointers that they’re taking. They’re trying to get up. Obviously this was the most three pointers that they have taken in a season. and that led to long rebounds that led to fast break opportunities and those kinds of things, especially with an Atlanta Hawks team.

that likes to play with pace. There were a couple times where the calves got caught celebrating themselves and somebody ran behind them and it was an easy layup or dunk for Atlanta.

Chris (06:15.17)

You know, Donovan didn’t want to use the term complacent because look, they’re 17 and two. Okay. You don’t want to overreact to one loss, just like you don’t want to under react to one loss. And I think the way to phrase it is that the calves have gotten comfortable. I don’t think complacent, but I think they’ve gotten comfortable in certain kinds of situations and with certain things that haven’t gone as well.

because they found a way to win those games. And in a weird way, Ethan, I feel like the Cavs needed this. I feel like they needed a game that they were going to lose, that they didn’t give their best effort, that they didn’t play their best, and they actually lost that game. So they couldn’t just lean on the fact of, yeah, we brought our C game and still won. Yeah, we brought our D game and we still found a way to win, right? There has been slippage on the defensive end of the floor.

going back two weeks at this point in time. But it’s like harder for guys to understand it and want to fix it when they’re not being hurt by it. They’re not being punished by it. Tonight could potentially be a bit of an eye opener. We can’t just rely on our offense to outscore all of these teams in the NBA because there are other teams in the NBA that can score with us. Team like Atlanta 135.

And it’s not just Atlanta, other teams could potentially score with the Cavs as well. So we can’t just rely on our offense to bail us out because it’s just that good. We can’t just play around with the game for three quarters and then just crank it up in the fourth quarter against lesser opponents, something that they have done in the past, right? They did that against Chicago. They did that against the Brooklyn Nets. They did it against another team during this stretch and they were able to escape.

because they buckled down defensively for basically one quarter and that was good enough against the level of opponent that they were playing against. So I feel like they kind of needed this. I think they needed to feel a loss. They needed to see that some of the stuff that they were doing was just not to their standard and was not a high enough level. And they needed that to not pay off with a victory at the end.

Chris (08:41.334)

So I think Kenny Atkinson said it perfectly after the game, Ethan. We kind of got what was coming to us. And they did. They’ve been playing with fire a lot during the last two weeks. And they’ve been getting away with it. And I think this is the kind of one that tells them, hey, we’ve got to be a little bit more cognizant of what’s going on here on the defensive end of the floor. And when you lose,

It’s a lot easier to say, all right, let’s really fix it. Let’s have a film session breakdown eventually at some point coming off a loss as opposed to getting away with stuff.

Ethan Sands (09:23.332)

Yeah, Kristen, I mean, when you talk about the defensive identity of it, we’ve talked about how this team has utilized that zone defense before as well to kind of help stymie or slow down some offenses that have gotten off to good starts, right? And this game, the reasoning in Kenny Atkinson has said this before is because they simply couldn’t stop players one-on-one. There were mismatches or…

rotations or all these different things and they simply couldn’t do it and it felt like obviously they’ve implemented the zone at an abundance to start the season but even then it felt like Ty Jerome was trying to point people into places where they were supposed to be on certain possessions even in that 2-3 zone and it felt like this team is still as you mentioned it not getting as much practice time and Donovan Mitchell kind of talked about this after the game like

It is really, really hard, especially talking about this early stretch to the season, to implement new things and try and say you’re going to do things without having practice time and adequate time to stop yourself and talk about it and break things down rather than literally learning on the fly while trying to play against an opponent that’s coming at you full steam. And Krista, the next topic I wanted to touch on was the fourth quarter execution.

Chris (10:32.27)

Hmm.

Ethan Sands (10:48.916)

This is a team as you said can play three quarters and then come into the fourth quarter and felt like every game other than this game this season they’re gonna come away with the win and they were 7-0 in those closing game situations coming into tonight and We talked about it after the Boston Celtics game where Evan Mobley didn’t really get the amount of love or attention that he might have should have and Tonight in the fourth quarter. He took two field goals

but he also got six different attempts at the free throw line. I think he was utilized better in actions. He was getting in more bodies and all those different things. He also had an aggressiveness to him to start the game that allowed him to have the output that he did. Do you think this was an influence on what happened in the Boston game and how important do you think that is to the growth of Evan, but also to where this team wants to be come April, May and June?

Chris (11:48.366)

also think even it was partly due to matchups, right? Dyson Daniels is a menace out on the perimeter. He can disrupt a lot of things that you’re doing on the offensive end of the floor. We talked about him in a previous podcast. He’s going to be in the conversation for Defensive Player of the Year. I doubt he wins it, but he leads the world in deflections and steals, and he can be bothersome. He could just take you out of your rhythm.

And the way to avoid that is just don’t deal with him as much perimeter, try and get the ball inside. And I feel like the Cavs came into tonight’s game and they saw an advantage inside. And I think they were right. Risa Shay is a rookie. That is a matchup that that Evan Mobley can exploit. know, Jalen Johnson is basically a small forward masquerading at times as a power forward. That’s a matchup.

that Evan Mobley and Jared Allen can both exploit. Clint Capella just looked completely lost at the beginning of the game. No energy, getting outworked, all that kind of stuff. I just think the Cavs came into this game feeling like, hey, we’ve got an advantage inside, especially with Evan. We’re going to make sure that we keep him involved. And that was the key to me in the game. Like, yeah, he got off to the great start and he has been getting off to very, very good starts.

He got five shot attempts in the first quarter, but the Cavs continued that they continued to go to him. He continued to work his way on the offensive glass and for positioning underneath and stuff so that he could make a positive impact on the offensive end of the floor. So I think part of it was there was a cognizant effort to keep him involved for all four quarters, especially in the fourth quarter. Darius talked about it after the game. Donovan talked about it after the game.

it’s something that the Cavs have learned as this season has gone on, just that Evan is ready for those opportunities. Evan is ready for those moments. Evan can be effective in those moments. He has more of a go-to move now. He has counters to some of the moves, that the defense will try and take away from him now. So he’s just a better player, a more reliable player in those kinds of situations. If, you know, the Cavs feel like it’s advantageous to go that way.

Chris (14:10.584)

So I do think there was part of that learning lessons from previous games where maybe they ignored him a little bit too much in late game situations. But I also think like this was this was matchup based. This game to me coming into it felt like an Evan Mobley type game felt like the kind of matchup where he could have success. And it was pretty clear from the opening tip that the Cavs had that kind of plan to when he gets five shots.

five shot attempts in the first quarter, it becomes abundantly clear that they’re trying to make him that level of involved on the offensive end against this particular team. know, against another team, maybe it’s going to be a little bit different. Maybe the Cavs feel like the advantage is elsewhere and they want to continue to exploit that and attack that. But tonight against Atlanta, it was clear that that Evan was a focal point of the offensive game plan as well. should have been.

Ethan Sands (15:10.377)

And to go back to the defensive element just for a quick second before we get to our last topic.

The overfouling is more so what I was talking about when it comes to when teams would get into the lane against the smaller guards and they would feel like instead of putting their hands back and just contesting, they would reach their hands in. That’s something that Kenny Atkinson and the guys around the locker room talked about a lot as well. So it’s kind of like a double-edged sword right now against different teams. And they’re trying to figure out where they can find their niche as a defensive unit while continuing to

show themselves as a defensive forefront on the interior with Jared Allen and Evan Mobley. And I wanted to pick your brain on this really quickly, Chris. It looked like Jared Allen was a little bit frustrated tonight. There were definitely conversations going on throughout the game with the sideline, with the bench, especially when they were in the zone and there were players cutting behind Jared.

Chris (16:01.358)

Mm-hmm.

Ethan Sands (16:09.71)

He was like, I don’t know what you want me to do with that if nobody’s going to tell me there’s people behind me and I’m looking in front of me. What do you like? I just want to get your thoughts on that kind of dynamic and what you were seeing as well.

Chris (16:15.043)

Yeah.

Chris (16:24.45)

Feels like there was a lot of miscommunication. The guys were talking about that in the locker room. And I think it just goes back to this, Ethan. I think when you get away with stuff as consistently as the Cavs have, and you haven’t been punished for it to the same level in terms of losses, you feel like you can continue to get away from it, from the things that were so effective for you.

from the little things that matter so much to your defense being a great defense. The communication, the being on a string, the holding each other accountable, the taking the one-on-one challenges, the requisite effort and energy, the proper close-outs. All these little things that may sometimes go unnoticed that are really, really important to a defense being great. When you start to just

not do those things at the same level. I think it shows up in a big way. And I think you saw a bunch of different times throughout the course of tonight where guys were like throwing their palms up, like what just happened? How did we get beat on that back cut? Like where was the rotation? Where was the closeout? Who was supposed to have that guy? And all those different things were happening. And I just think the calves have to get back to some of the basics and some of the fundamentals and some of the principles.

that can potentially make this defense a great defense. The things that J.B. Bickerstaff stressed every single day in practice that the guys didn’t always love during the J.B. Bickerstaff era because they’re so rudimentary. Like, why are we going over these things? You know what I mean? Like, I think Jarrett has been trying to say this for the last week or so. And he said, like, we have a tendency to get a little bit too comfortable.

and believe that we’re such a great defense that it’s just going to all come together and we’re going to figure it out and we’re going to lock in on the defensive end and that mentality needs to go away because the truth is 74 points for the Hawks in the second half 37 in the fourth quarter like that can’t keep happening. And I know it was just one game and it was one team that scored 135.

Chris (18:50.638)

But it shouldn’t be a case where given the personnel that they have and given how good of a defense they have shown themselves to be, what they’re capable of, it shouldn’t take 140 to win games. You know what I mean? Like not for this team. It doesn’t take Oklahoma City 140 to win games consistently, right? Because they’re that level of a defensive team. It shouldn’t take the Cavs scoring 140.

on a night against the Atlanta Hawks to win. And they just need to get back to doing the little things that make them a great defense. And they can’t take those things for granted and start saying, well, we don’t have to do those things because we’ve got Jared and Evan. Well, we don’t have to do those things because we’ve got Isaac Okoro out there on the perimeter. No, no, no. Like, you guys have to do those things. That’s.

That’s what made the defense what it was. like I said, hopefully for the Cavs sake, this, this is a wake up call and they understand that, they can’t continue to get away with, with some of these communication breakdowns, some of these lapses in concentration, a lack of attention to detail, lack of focus, all that kind of stuff that has shown up at various points, albeit in wins as opposed to losses with the exception of tonight.

and against Boston.

Ethan Sands (20:19.34)

And that Boston game, you learn from that as well, and you come back. But you also have to face them again on Sunday. And that’s another.

Chris (20:28.686)

There’s another thing too that, and I’m not saying that Kenny Atkinson is wrong with this and I’m not trying to criticize him. He’s the front runner for coach of the year, but it’s just something that I’m going to monitor throughout the rest of the season. He is very analytics based and as much data as you can get, the more informed you’re going to be and the better off you’re going to be.

I just wonder if the shot over expected stat that he continues to point to, the one that he often points out at halftime, is actually a good thing to let the players know because some of the guys are starting to say, well, you know, they just shot out of their minds. They just made shots. Like that guy’s not that good of a shooter and he did that.

So like this stuff is going to work itself out. And I just wonder if like there’s too much of these players thinking that some of these opponents are shooting over their heads and it’s just going to correct itself without them correcting it. I’m not saying that’s how they think. I’m saying it’s something that I’m going to continue to monitor moving forward.

Ethan Sands (21:53.282)

And Kenny said that at the end at his postgame press press at his postgame presser too. He was like, yeah, it’s just maybe just some players shooting better than they actually are. Right. And he legitimately said that. And I was like, well, if they continue to do that, it’s kind of like what the Cavs have been doing. Like you expect them to shoot worse. Right. But until they do, you got to play with what you got. But speaking of shooters, maybe shooting above their heads.

I know Cavs fans were taking a look at this guy coming into the season and he showed you that he could do what he did tonight. Deandre Hunter, 26 points, five of nine from three, nine of 16 from the field. And Chris, I know we have to just touch on this because fans are gonna ask about it. But when you look at his game, when you look at what he was able to do against the Cavs and against the Cavs team that as we mentioned before,

probably to their Achilles heel, they think, hey, our offense is as good as Boston’s now or Atlanta or whatever. Like we can shoot with this team, these teams. Does Deandre Hunter look appealing? Does Deandre Hunter look like a guy that could fit into this offense or, and we’ve talked about this coming into the season, Hunter’s a guy that the Cavs have liked for a while, a very long time at least.

Chris (22:59.17)

Mm-hmm.

Chris (23:18.018)

Yeah. All I kept thinking as he was banging three after three and celebrating on big plays that he was making as he was just slicing through the Cav zone unimpeded at times. And credit to Quinn Snyder for having DeAndre Hunter at times play the five spot and kind of just like go to the free throw line extended because that’s the soft spot in the zone. Like that’s a pretty good guy.

to do that stuff with because he can pass dribble and shoot because he can finish oversized because he can play make a little bit from the pocket there. All I kept thinking as he was doing all of that and banging five threes was you know is this the Ty Jerome game? And what I mean by that is a couple of years ago Ty Jerome comes to Cleveland with the Golden State Warriors Santa Cruz Warriors

Because Draymond Green didn’t play and Andrew Wiggins didn’t play and Steph Curry didn’t play and Klay Thompson didn’t play and they had like nobody on that roster. And Ty Jerome comes to Cleveland and he bangs seven or eight threes. He scores 20 plus points and he leads the Warriors to this upset victory. And I had known at that time that the Cavs liked Ty Jerome and they had tried to get Ty Jerome.

They tried to draft him and they also tried to sign him in free agency. And all I was thinking as he was having that kind of game was, hmm, I wonder if the Cavs are paying attention to this. And I wonder if this is going to be meaningful down the road. And I’m not saying that the Cavs signed Ty Jerome simply because he did that. But when guys perform like that against your team, you put it in the memory bank and

Oftentimes it leads to signing them in free agency or trying to trade for them. And all I kept thinking tonight was, okay, does De’Andre Hunter now, because this happened against the Cavs and he showed how good of a fit he can be on this particular team and all the different areas where he can help a team, does this move him to the top of their wish list in the trade season? Now, this is a nuanced conversation here.

Chris (25:42.382)

because DeAndre Hunter makes $20 million. So, if you’re starting any kind of trade conversation surrounding DeAndre Hunter, the base package that you start with is salary matching. Okay? And then, on top of the matching salary, you have to say to yourself, would we theoretically have the assets to sweeten that particular package and make it one that Atlanta would say yes to?

or make it appealing enough for them because here’s the thing that we know about trade season. When you have wings, quote unquote available wings, they become a hot commodity around the NBA. And there are more than just the calves that would be interested in the likes of DeAndre Hunter or Cam Johnson if Brooklyn even wants to consider that, which they probably don’t because he was

one of the pieces of the Kevin Durant trade and he is playing out of his mind and Brooklyn’s actually pretty competitive right now. But when you have that type of player available, it’s not just one team that’s going to be interested. You have a bunch of different teams in the NBA that are interested. So who’s going to give Atlanta the best package? So if we just start with the idea of salary match from the very beginning, and then what other kind of assets can you add to it?

And then you ask yourself, do the Cavs win that kind of bidding war? It becomes a little bit more complicated, but would he fit here? Absolutely. Like if you’re talking about the Cavs at the trade deadline, the type of player that they may want to go out and explore adding, if they feel like they have the kind of trade chips to actually pull off some kind of deal, it’s a player like DeAndre Hunter.

You just envision how he would match up in a series against the Knicks with all their wings or how he would match up in a series against the Celtics with all their wings, with all their size, with all their length, all their athleticism. Cavs were going to draft Deandre Hunter in 2019, by the way. He went fourth. So they ended up with Darius Garland. It worked out. Darius is pretty good player, right? Franchise player, all star, one member of the core four, but

Chris (28:09.166)

like that tells you that the Cavs liked him from a while back and just as a cherry on top, he is one of Ty Jerome’s best friends in the NBA. So much so that Ty is probably going to have Thanksgiving dinner with Deandre Hunter in Atlanta because the Cavs are going to be traveling to Atlanta on Thanksgiving Day. So you have somebody else in this organization that could vouch for Deandre Hunter, the person and the player and

let everybody know that would want to know what kind of person he is behind the scenes, how he would fit in the locker room and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, that’s a long winded way of saying he would be a really, really good fit, but it’s a little bit complicated from the standpoint of the calves.

Ethan Sands (28:57.314)

I just know that our listeners and our watchers are definitely chewing at the bits on that one, Chris, and trying to see what he could potentially be on this team. I obviously, we’ve talked about it a couple of different times with his contract and trying to figure out what would have to happen for that to work. it’s a…

Chris (29:16.226)

Yeah, I mean, I think you just have to start with the number, right? And how do you get to 20 million without breaking up too much of your team that has gotten you to this 17 and to start? Because every decision that the Cavs are going to make with this roster, no matter how big or small, Ethan, it is going to be delicate. And you have to consider a lot of different factors.

So if you’re talking about like, hey, at the very beginning, how do you get to $20 million? What’s the easiest path to it? Well, Jared Allen makes 20. You don’t want to go that direction, right? Caris Levert makes 16. Now you only have to find four more million. But Caris, while he was healthy, was playing at an incredibly high level, really good fit in Kenny Atkinson’s system. One of the anchors of the second unit.

really close to Donovan Mitchell, a really important player in the grand scheme for the Cavs. And it’s just hard for me to even think that the Cavs would trade Caris Levert and consider whatever they got back a significant upgrade. Max Struis probably don’t want to do that. He’s your starting small forward. He brings a different kind of element with his movement, with his gravity, with his shooting. It’s just a little bit different.

the Neandre Hunter. So like, if you’re talking about the Cavs, what they would prefer is like, they’re lesser rotation players. But Niang makes eight and Wade makes six and you’re still five million away.

So I’m not saying it’s not possible. You can always bring in a third team. You can always bring in a fourth team. But it would seem like it would probably cost one of Karras, Laverte or Max Drews just from the very beginning. And that’s not to say that I know for sure that Atlanta would be interested in either guy. And then if you start with Max or Karras as a base package, Atlanta is going to say, well, you got to throw in some draft capital too.

Ethan Sands (31:32.068)

For sure. Right.

Chris (31:32.45)

And the Cavs really don’t have a lot of that. So I just, when you’re talking about guys that make that kind of money in a potential trade, it just becomes harder for me to see that. And then that’s why part of the reason why I’ve said in the past on this podcast, Ethan, like if Cavs fans want the Cavs to make a deal because they think an upgrade needs to be made.

You just have to set your sights a little bit lower on some cheaper options that may not move the needle the same way, but like would fit really, really well for what it is they’re looking to up.

Ethan Sands (32:16.62)

And a small update to end the podcast on Keris Laverte. Kenny Atkinson said Keris went through a workout and a three on three workout today. and it went well, he was moving at full speed, all those different things. Obviously he said that from coach speak perspective, that it’s not something we would need to worry about going forward. But I think me and Chris.

Chris (32:38.798)

That’s something he thinks, but he wasn’t sure. I think that’s important. He said that’s a better question for the medical staff and it doesn’t seem like it’s something that we’re going to have to worry about. But he wasn’t entirely sure about that. The way that he phrased it, I think, was that it seems like it’s just a wear and tear thing with him.

Ethan Sands (32:45.22)

Fair enough, fair enough.

Ethan Sands (33:03.458)

Right, and that’s what Caris has described it as since coming back this offseason with the same knee, with the different knee and all these different things. So potentially coming back for Friday, potentially could be back for Sunday, maybe Sunday more likely.

Chris (33:11.458)

Mm-hmm.

Chris (33:18.798)

I think Sunday’s more likely. From everything that I have gathered recently, look Friday’s important because it’s an NBA Cup game and the Cavs want to go to Vegas. But, but, and these things are very, very fluid when it comes to any injuries. But at the start of this week, the feeling that I was getting, Dean Wade, Caris LaVert, more likely this weekend than Friday.

or Wednesday and they didn’t make it back for Wednesday here against Atlanta. Very quick turnaround going to Atlanta playing a matinee game. So it just feels like to me, you never say never and I’m not ruling anything out because like I said, these things are fluid, but it just feels more likely to me Sunday on both of those guys.

Ethan Sands (34:11.79)

And Karis was out there on the sideline with his braids out. I don’t know if I’ve ever seen that. That was interesting for me. I don’t know if I’ve ever seen him without his braids out, but I didn’t.

Chris (34:16.46)

Yeah.

Chris (34:23.05)

sure you have, he’s played some games like that… …the last couple of years. yeah. It’s rare.

Ethan Sands (34:29.232)

Maybe, maybe. It’s definitely rare. That might be how rare it is. I don’t remember it. But all righty, for fans that or listeners that want to contribute to a survey about the podcast where you can give your feedback, go to https://tinyurl.com/WGPod. That’s https://tinyurl.com/WGPod. With that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast but remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris me and Jimmy by subscribing to subtext We want to say happy Thanksgiving and happy holidays to everybody that is listening and we hope that you get to enjoy Your day with your family with your friends, whoever you are around surrounded by and your loved ones, but This isn’t just our podcast is your podcast and the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext y’all be safe. We out.