Reacting to the Cavs’ 15th straight win: Kenny Atkinson continues to push the right buttons — Wine and Gold Talk podcast

Takeaways:

• The Cavaliers’ 15-0 start showcases their depth and talent.
• Darius Garland’s playmaking has been crucial for the team’s success.
• Kenny Atkinson’s coaching strategies have empowered all players.
• The team has a different mindset going into clutch moments.
• Injuries to key players could impact future games.
• The Cavaliers lead the league in clutch performance metrics.
• Ty Jerome’s addition has brought steadiness to the team.
• The upcoming game against the Celtics is a significant test.
• The Cavaliers’ defense needs improvement despite their success.
• The chemistry and confidence of the team are at an all-time high. Al Horford’s role compared to Kristaps Porzingis.
• Cavs fans should be excited for every game.
• Defensive slippage against five-out teams is concerning.
• Cavs need to improve rebounding against smaller teams.
• Karis LeVert’s role may shift depending on injuries.
• Cavs’ offensive strategy is evolving this season.
• Transition defense is crucial against fast-paced teams.
• Cavs’ depth will be tested against the Celtics.
• The importance of shot creation in high-stakes games.
• Cavs are capable of outscoring top teams like Boston.

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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.

Ethan Sands

What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. And we are coming to you once again with the big three, Chris Fedor, Jimmy Watkins joining me today after the 128, 114 win for the Cleveland Cavaliers. And guys, they are 15 and 0.

There is only one team in NBA history to have a better start to the season than the Cavs have right now. Chris, it’s a momentous occasion once again. What did you like and what did you not like coming away from this game against the Hornets?

Chris (00:50.368)

I just feel like tonight was in some ways and yes it was against the Hornets and they were playing the second game of a back-to-back and they’re not very good and they’re going to be headed to the lottery as well but I feel like tonight guys was an encapsulation of who this team is. This is not a one-man show despite popular belief despite what some of these talking heads are talking about with Donovan Mitchell and I have only faith in Donovan Mitchell and nobody else.

This is not a one man team. hasn’t been a one man team all season long. You don’t get to 15 and 0 to this point if you are a one man team. This is a deep talent rich team that is well connected and has a coach who is making all the right chess moves at the right times for this team. And I think tonight at various points, they were without five of their expected 11 top players in the rotation and they still found a way to beat Charlotte.

They trailed for like 30 seconds in the entire game. There was some slippage on defense. Sure, that’s something that they’re going to have to work on as the weeks go on, as the days go on here. But this showed off the depth of the team. No Donovan Mitchell, Ty Jerome steps in the lineup and he matches his career high with 24 points. No Donovan Mitchell, Darius Garland has a bigger platform to run the team and he has his third double-double.

No Donovan Mitchell, which had to shove other guys up into the rotation. Craig Porter Jr. comes off the bench and he gives quality minutes to this team. So I just feel like Kenny Atkinson, his greatest strength as a coach to this point to me guys, is him empowering everybody on this roster. One to 14. They say one to 15 is one to 14. One to 17, if you want to extend it further.

to the two-way contract guys. And all of these guys are playing with a different level of confidence, a different level of freedom, and they feel empowered by this coach. And I think that all showed itself tonight against Charlotte. In saying all that, they gotta fix the defense. It’s not good enough right now.

Jimmy Watkins (03:02.248)

Yeah, Ty Jerome says one to 18. I don’t know how many bodies he’s counting, it is, know, I know. Right. The 18th man, Rocket Mortgage Fieldhouse. My main takeaway tonight was Darious, and for a lot of the season has been Darious. I’m excited about Darious again. This is the dude that…

Chris (03:05.026)

Yup. Normally it is. You just keep the extra roster spot open for flexibility purposes and, you know, luxury tax stuff. There you go.

Jimmy Watkins (03:31.078)

I think Cavs fans fell in love with early in his career. The way he managed the game tonight, remind me a lot of like prime Chris Paul. Let me dice up defense with my playmaking. Let me get other guys involved. Let me generate open looks for other people. And then it used to feel like with Chris Paul back in the Clippers days, it’s like, do I have to take, okay, fine.

Chris (03:38.253)

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (03:59.974)

Okay, fine. I’ll take the game over and put it away. the perfect encapsulation of that for Darius was he started this game by scoring or assisting on the first 11 points. And I believe he assisted on eight of those. And then I think he scored or assisted on like the last 14 points before the Cavs kind of gave their guys a curtain call and put the bench in and both teams kind of agreed, okay, this one’s over. that I think he had, he scored.

11 of those 14 points. that’s your dichotomy right there. Early on, Darius is setting the tone for everybody else at the end. mean, was, the Hornets couldn’t stay in front of him. He was getting to the rim and then he hits the big step back three at the end. And then yeah, to Chris’s points, you’re down two, specifically, I’m impressed by Kenny’s ability to get the most out of some of the lower depth chart guys.

at all times, but I’m also like the way he adjusted on the fly. Don’t you lose your two best perimeter defenders, right? And as or when Dean Wade to injury mid game and they’ve, had been working with zone with some of the zone stuff before that happened. did it against the bulls on Friday. But can he manufacturers? mean, it’s easier to manufacture good defense. have two elite rim protectors. I understand, but he, they manufacture stops out of, cause they, they throw his own.

Chris (05:07.608)

We’re here.

Jimmy Watkins (05:30.162)

throws zone defense out there at Charlotte and that makes it easier to push them into above the break threes. That makes it easier to funnel guys toward the rim to your two elite rim protectors. And I like the analogy that Kenny used after the game. It’s like, well, NFL teams use man and zone coverages. Why wouldn’t we? Yeah, it’s like, of course, duh. Like why wouldn’t you throw a change up to your fastball every now and again? I think that makes perfect sense. So I mean, that’s another.

Another beautiful day in Cleveland basketball paradise, man. The coach presses the right buttons, the right guys step up all the time. And yes, the Charlotte Hornets are bad. And I might add, not very fun to watch. Lamello Ball is much more consumable via TikTok than he is over 48 minutes. He takes some egregious, egregious shots. I know the concept of Lamello Ball is supposed to be like incredible passer. That is not.

He throws cool passes. I don’t know that he’s a great passer.

Ethan Sands (06:32.412)

And tonight really kind of got into the two differences, the two main differences from last season. The biggest one for me was every time either Donovan or Darius was out or sidelined or wasn’t on the court, it was, okay, now they can play better because they’re not next to each other with the other one. And this season, it’s been more of Darius has been good and so good even with Donovan next to him that it wasn’t a surprise.

for him to be able to take over. Like he was able to do this with and without, and it wasn’t coming in saying like, Donovan’s out, it’s gonna be a big game for Darius. was, he’s gonna keep doing what he has been doing all season. And the other thing is, is when it comes to this team’s play going into the fourth quarter, like there is just an even keel about this team that there wasn’t last season.

It was always, we’re entering the fourth quarter. I don’t care if we have a lead. I don’t care if we are down. It just feels like something is going to go wrong. And I’m sitting there talking to another media member as we were entering the fourth quarter after they had another poor third quarter. And I was like, well, I don’t feel worried. I feel like they’re going to figure something out. And as Kenny Atkinson has put it in a couple of different times, sometimes you just have to try different things because

things aren’t working or things are working. And obviously we talked about them going to zone and that happened after a series of plays where they were getting into the pain and driving and kicking and all those different things. But this team feels like going into the fourth quarter that they will make a plan, find a plan to get the best out of their players. But also they mentioned it after the game. It’s a different mindset. It’s a different belief.

that they have going into those clutch moments. I believe they’re over plus 70 when it comes to plus minus in clutch moments. They also have seven different games where they’ve been in clutch time. They have obviously a hundred percent win rate, but this is a team that is also shooting 60 % in clutch moments and 53.3 % from three point range in those different time frames, right? That’s with

Chris (08:26.894)

you

Chris (08:51.694)

Yeah.

Ethan Sands (08:51.946)

The game online, five points or less. It’s incredible to see the differences and the changes that have made only with a new coach.

Chris (09:01.794)

Well, we can talk about the new coach all we want and that’s certainly part of it. But I think Ty Jerome said it really, really well after the game. Like we have dudes. We have dudes that can step up and deliver in those kinds of moments and look no further than Darius Garland. This is not the Darius from last year. Darius was awful last year, especially in fourth quarter situations. He was getting pushed around. He couldn’t finish at the rim. He didn’t have the touch on his shots.

It looked like he was wearing down throughout the course of the game because he was playing at like 175 to 180 pounds. So this is a different Darius. And when one of your best players is playing well in fourth quarters, it’s going to make the coach look smarter, right? When Donovan Mitchell is delivering dagger after dagger, whether it’s against Chicago or against Milwaukee or whoever it is throughout the course of this, it’s going to make Kenny Atkinson.

look a lot smarter and he’s pushing all the right buttons and he deserves a lot of credit for it against Brooklyn. He went to a lineup that he hadn’t used before against Chicago. He went to the all bench unit and he switched to a zone playing Dean Wade at the five. You know, tonight he made all the right moves going to the zone, taking Charlotte completely out of its rhythm during a time when the mellow was on the bench, which, you know, when they didn’t have their top point guard out there, they looked a little bit bamboozled facing the zone.

And the Cavs were able to build some momentum. They were able to create some distance. They were able to open the fourth quarter on an eight to two run. But a lot of their guys are stepping up when it matters the most and they’re delivering in a way consistently in a way that they didn’t last year. And yeah, part of it’s they’re being put in better situations. Part of it is that they have more comfort in this offense and it fits their skill sets a little bit better.

The other part of it is they’re just playing better. They didn’t have Ty Jerome last year. They had him for two games. Look at what Ty does. He brings a steadiness. He brings a calmness. He brings a poise. He brings shot making. He brings another ball handler. He can play on and off the ball. So having that guy in fourth quarters is certainly meaningful and it contributes to it as well. know, statistically in terms of net rating, the Cavs are the second best fourth-court team in the NBA.

Chris (11:25.0)

And a big part of that is their dudes stepping up and playing well when it matters the most. I George Niang banging that three early on in the fourth quarter to punctuate that eight to two run that just lit up Rocket Mortgage Fieldhouse and led to a bunch of F words from George going back to the bench. How many moments of George did we see like that last year? Not as many, right? Not in meaningful situations.

So having all these guys, and it’s not just Donovan, it’s not just Darius, I think the beauty of this 15-0 start, it’s different guys in different moments throughout the course of games where they’re stepping up in a big, big way. And that allows Kenny to put his faith in the non-starters in a different kind of way.

Jimmy Watkins (12:19.12)

I would love to get my hands on the George Niang thesaurus after George hits a big shot. He’s got a colorful command of the English language in those moments. Here’s the thing about the dude’s conversation. Yes, it is having capital D dudes. Having Donovan Mitchell, having Darius Garland, having this version of Darius Garland in particular is a different equation. But it’s like…

I think Darius is probably a separate equation because he had a lot of stuff happening externally last year that we’ve talked about ad nauseam, know, the broken jaw, the family stuff, the weight he lost as a result of the broken jaw, all that stuff. like everyone else from Donovan Mitchell through Body 17, I feel like that was part of the frustration with J.B. Bickerstaff.

before Kenny got here, right? Is like, it kind of feels like the Cavs do have dudes, but the dudes aren’t dude-ing. And to a certain extent, there’s only so much you can expect. had this, I feel like we had this conversation like five times during the playoffs last year. It’s like, JB Bickerstaff is trying different stuff, but these dudes aren’t performing. Well, now they’re performing under Kenny Atkinson. And when we say that one of Kenny’s biggest strengths is empowering all these guys, that’s where like my,

why brain wires get a little bit crossed here. are these guys like Tide? Okay, Ty Jerome didn’t exist on the roster last year, essentially. But like some of these other guys, was it just that they weren’t dudeing or did they not have someone who correctly unlocked their dude-ness? I don’t know. I don’t know Kenny is that this is what the Brooklyn teams, his old Brooklyn teams did too, right? That’s true.

Chris (13:50.851)

You did not.

Chris (14:07.79)

think it depends on the player that we’re talking about. I definitely think it depends on the player that we’re talking about. I think George Niang is a different case study altogether because I think there was a feeling surrounding George of, my God, if I miss a couple of shots, I’m getting yanked out of this game. And the same thing when it comes to Sam Merrill. Like, all right, I’m gonna get like two shots in the first half. And if I look awful on those two shots, I’m not gonna play it in the second.

So there is a level of that. The leash is longer from Kenny Atkinson and that allows these guys to play with more freedom and less pressure. But I think in the case of Darius, like that wasn’t coach related. was just, Darius had a terrible year. He called it what it was, one of the worst years of his entire life. But it’s like, there were also reasons attached to it that made you believe that the old Darius was in there somewhere.

And he was going to return in some capacity this year. So again, I think when it comes to this whole conversation, it is player specific and part of it is dooding and part of it is Kenny Atkinson as well. Yes.

Ethan Sands (15:20.256)

want to correct myself because we were talking about clutch time stats and all this different stuff and I said plus minus was what the 70 was and that’s incorrect. It’s net rating. Yeah, which is even more like you talk about the Cavs literally lead the league in offensive rating for clutch moments, defensive rating and net rating. Like this is a team and we talk about dudes dooding, right? Sure. And you talk about, and we mentioned the field goal percentages.

Jimmy Watkins (15:27.729)

It’s net rating, is it not?

Chris (15:28.45)

Yeah. Net rating,

Jimmy Watkins (15:47.282)

Dude ology, that’s what we’re talking about here.

Chris (15:49.776)

my God. We’ve reached our quota.

Ethan Sands (15:51.431)

All these different stats that we can point to, but the reality is this is a team that can contend with the Boston Celtics, who we’re gonna get a first look at on Tuesday. And this is a Boston Celtics team that…

has most of their players outside of Kristoffer Porzingis and the Cavs are going to go in trying to see what happens without with the possibility of them having to play without Dean Wade or Isaac Okoro or Sam Merrow or Max Struce if that happens because you think about Isaac and Dean didn’t return to the game obviously Isaac was questionable to return but Dean automatically was not coming back in tonight’s game I just think it’s it’s a completely different

Outlook for this game if the Cavs go in again unhealthy against this version of the Celtics

Chris (16:50.764)

Yeah it is, you would love to see the Cavs close to full strength to get a true gauge of just how far they’ve come at the same time. You know, the person that makes Boston a cheat code is also missing in Kristaps Porzingis. So yeah, you would like to see both teams be close to full strength or at full strength going into this showdown. I just don’t know that that’s going to be reality. The Sam Merrill thing

is a little bit concerning just because about a week and a half ago, he had some scans on his ankle. The ankle trouble is something that goes back to a prior surgery that he had on the ankle a couple of years ago. And that’s where the pain is coming from. And about a week and a half ago, I was told that he had a couple of different scans.

And they were waiting on the results of those and that’s why he popped up on the injury report they had to put him on the injury report, but they were clean and There was a lot of optimism that the Cavs had you know cleared a hurdle and Sam wasn’t going to have to deal with it And then there was a shoot around So Philly I Think it was Philly They had a shoot around one of the games. It was either Chicago or Philly. I think it was Philly

And Sam turned to one of the members of the training staff and as I was walking out, I heard him say, it’s not feeling good today. And I knew that was about his ankle. And that night he went 0 for 5. He wasn’t moving the same kind of way. And we haven’t seen him since. So this ankle seems like something that the Cavs are going to have to continue to monitor. And they’re going to have to

do a lot of rehab and recovery on it on off days. But this is a guy who his game is predicated on cuts, constant movements, catching the ball and shooting, start stop, all that kind of stuff. And if his ankle is less than 100%, or if this is going to be a problem moving forward, man.

Chris (19:10.294)

It’s a bummer for him because he was playing so well and he was a fixture of this rotation. Dean Wade was walking like an old man in the locker room. He clearly had a noticeable limp. Isaac Ikoro didn’t seem like he was bothered as much by his ankle. He was walking more normal than Dean was. But Dean told me after the game that it wasn’t that bad, but he’s going to have to monitor the swelling and he’s going to have to ice it as much as possible.

Ethan Sands (19:22.718)

left in a walking boot.

Chris (19:40.152)

Flight to Boston’s probably not going to help. know, Isaac and Dean are two guys that you want in this matchup against Boston. Are you kidding me? Like, they got Jason Tatum, they got Jaylen Brown. Yeah, you need guys with that defense, with that versatility, with that switchability, all those different things. So if the Cavs are not going to have them, obviously it’s going to take a little bit away.

Jimmy Watkins (19:50.628)

Need. Need in this matchup.

Chris (20:09.014)

and the conclusions that you can draw after a game like this, where they’re that level short-handed, it’s a little bit different too, which is kind of a bummer going into the game.

Ethan Sands (20:23.252)

I just wanted to add that Dean Wade did leave in a walking boot after tonight’s game. But Jimmy, I know you wanted to chime in.

Jimmy Watkins (20:32.868)

Yeah, I mean, I’m not huge on taking too many big picture things away from a November regular season game while it is for the vaunted Emirates NBA Cup. And we all respect the cup on this podcast. I understand that. But I just don’t, I don’t think it was ever going to be a huge, it’s certainly a benchmark game. I don’t think it was ever going to be like, you know, this is what the conference finals will look like.

kind of situation. It will still be a spectacle, regardless of how Isaac Okoro and Dean Wade are feeling that day. That will obviously hurt the Cavs. They can’t play. Evan Mobley is probably guarding one of the two wings at that point. If neither of those guys are playing, I would be fascinated to see who gets the other assignment. it’s still going to feel like a big deal.

Chris (21:03.267)

Right.

Jimmy Watkins (21:32.316)

The Boston Garden is still going to be rocking. It’s still going to be the champs against the undefeated Cavs. You’re still going to have the faces out there, Tatum, Jalen Brown, Donovan Mitchell, Darius Garland, Mobley, Jared Allen. It’s still going to feel like a big deal. It’s just the Cavs are going to be hampered with their perimeter defense, which is already in a pretty difficult place right now. And you’re not going to get some of the same really key matchups.

Chris (21:38.168)

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (22:02.152)

for some of the Celtic stars that you’d and I would think even like from a from a coaching perspective if I’m Kenny Atkinson I would just love to workshop some of this stuff with my full roster of guys, right? That’s that’s probably the closest playoff implications that we would have for this game is just Kenny trying stuff during these Boston games or like Can we see what it what these two teams look like with Christoph Porzingis on the quiz? That’s like a huge chess piece

Chris (22:15.276)

Yeah.

Chris (22:22.712)

Right.

Chris (22:28.43)

Yeah

Jimmy Watkins (22:30.908)

for Boston to play eventually. mean like Al Horford to some extent is like Christopps Porzingis light. I mean, no on offense, on offense, he is a stretch five. He’s a stretch five. It’s like, it’s not even, it’s not even like a light beer. It’s like prohibition, like it’s prohibition beer. It’s not, not even, it’s not even close to non-alcoholic beer is what it is. Al Horford is like the non-alcoholic Christopps Porzingis.

Chris (22:41.774)

Yeah,

Jimmy Watkins (22:58.81)

in that he is by design, his job is to take one of Evan Mobley and Jared Allen away from the basket and complicate the cab strategy to funnel everything toward them at the rim, right? But Christoph Spursingis is just, first of all, much better shooter and more willing shooter than Al Horford. He’s much more dynamic. You close out on Al Horford, he’s probably not gonna get a step as often.

against Mowgli and Jared Allen closing out against them as Kristaps Porzingis might be able to. That’s a function of age and skill. Kristaps Porzingis is much younger and much more skilled than him. I think if I’m the Cavs coaching staff, I’m a little bit more bummed about this. I think Cavs fans should be psyched. Every game is appointment viewing, as I said on the last podcast, and even after they lose, it’s a really fun team to watch. But certainly until they lose, you have to be locked in front of your television for every game. It’s just that.

Chris (23:33.644)

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (23:55.526)

You know you’re not going to be able to see how the chess pieces might move with because some of will be missing.

Chris (24:01.132)

Yeah, on a smaller scale, even though the Cavs are 15-0, guys, they got to figure out these five out teams. There are going to be a lot of them that they’re going to be seeing. And if you look at the closest games that the Cavs have played, the most competitive ones, the ones where it felt like, eh, it could go either way. Maybe they win, maybe they lose. York, five out. Milwaukee, five out. Chicago twice, five out. Charlotte, five out.

Boston very much five out So it’s it’s not something that you say. Okay based on what happens in November it’s going to be problematic for the team moving forward and it’s going to be problematic when they finally get into the playoffs, but It’s clear that their defense doesn’t function at the same high level when facing five out teams

Jimmy Watkins (24:59.662)

I didn’t ask Ty Jerome about this after the game. Like, what do you think is, if I asked him, what’s it contributing to, or to what would you attribute this defensive slippage? And part of this is because I just, think he genuinely does need to watch a little bit more of it, but he basically was like, well, we’re playing some pretty dangerous teams. And he decided the Bulls and the Hornets and it’s like, okay, yes, the Bulls play fast and they shoot a lot of threes.

Chris (25:27.022)

start listically.

Jimmy Watkins (25:29.512)

yes, the Hornets have some interesting, I like Brandon Miller who didn’t play very well tonight. LaMelo has star qualities. Although, like I said, man, he was, he was a tough watch and I was joking in the media room that the Hornets are like the perfect TikTok MBA team because they have so many highlight creators. But if you watch them over the course of 48 minutes, they are even down to their, their announcer Eric Collins is the best, right? But like.

you watch the six second clip and it’s like, LaMelo! And it cuts off right before he says, seven for 26 from three. It’s just not as fun if you watch the whole Charlotte Hornets experience. So I get what Ty is saying. The Bulls do present challenges with a center who can shoot and shot makers and Kobe White and Zach Levine and they play fast. The Hornets have some talent on the offensive end. These are bad teams.

These are bad teams. These are not the teams that you want to point out and say, well, hey, you got to tip your cap to them.

Chris (26:33.005)

Mm-hmm.

Ethan Sands (26:33.846)

I also think like the other area that I was worrisome when it comes to this Cavs team, especially tonight was like coming in you look at the starting unit and you’re like, okay, sure. Evan Mobley and Jared Allen had a great overall games, right? They combined for what? 46 and no, 44 and 26. So 44 points and 26 rebounds and

Like sure overall, like when you look at the stat sheet, it looks great. But to me, I was like, you’re going up against the team that has Grett Williams as the center. Like you should have 20 and 20 rebounds. like, and then it got to the point where the Cavs were out rebounded. Like they were being out rebounded for a majority of that game. And also they ended up getting the Charlotte Hornets ended up having more offensive rebounds than the Cavs did.

And I’m like, this is a team that has two seven footers, two premier seven footers in the league, two seven footers that are known for not only defending, but also getting rebounds and all these other things. And I believe it was Ty Jerome that said it. He was like, the guards gotta do better on getting rebounds too, because as we talked about Charlotte, Chicago takes a lot of threes. So those are gonna be long rebounds. That’s gonna happen against Boston too.

And if you best believe, Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum are going to get in there and try and get the rebounds as well. Following shots, probably not. That’s not what Jason Tatum is known for. just getting active on the glass for this team is going to be huge, especially against these teams that play five out. Because if you play against the Knicks, and we saw it already, Josh Hart has double rebounds against them. Six foot four power forward should not be out rebounding a seven foot forward or center.

That’s just my opinion on the situation at hand.

Chris (28:34.412)

Yep, in saying all that, I’m very excited guys about Tuesday night. I do think it’s going to have a lot more intensity than a normal November game and it’s not because it’s the NBA Cup. The Cavs players are talking about it. You do respect the Cup. And the Cavs want the Cup. It is clear that they want the Cup. Look at how they handled the final minutes against Chicago. Alright, we’re just gonna keep boosting that point differential.

Jimmy Watkins (28:49.224)

We respect the cup though.

Chris (29:02.54)

as much as we possibly can and that’s how you have to do it because that’s one of the tiebreakers and if you’re in a game against a team that isn’t as good as you and you have an opportunity to continue to add to your score, your final tally, by all means do it because you’re probably not going to be able to do that against Boston. You’re probably not going to increase your point differential against a team that caliber. But all the players for the Cavs are talking about it. Whether they’re going to be very boisterous

and make inflammatory remarks or not, this is one that has been circled on the calendar and it gets even more juice because it’s legitimately one of the teams remaining over the next couple of weeks that can keep the Cavs from getting to 24. mean, 24 is a number that they care about. It’s the record set by the Golden State Warriors. There are about four teams that could prevent the Cavs.

from getting to that realistically, we understand that things happen in the NBA and anybody can beat anybody and somehow the Charlotte team beat Milwaukee. like legitimately, Boston twice, Denver and then Miami. Like those are the realistic teams that could prevent the Cavs from getting this historic record. And this is the first one and it’s on the road.

and it’s in TD Garden and yes, it’s an NBA Cup game.

Jimmy Watkins (30:38.28)

Real quick on the rebounding point. It’s not just that the Cavs, like the Hornets were puny out there because Mark Williams wasn’t playing and Grant Williams and Musa Diabate, I like Musa Diabate by the way, were playing center for most of the time out there. Watching Grant Williams try to defend pick and rolls as the center, very funny because he’s just, he’s not quick enough to stay with a guard on a switch or really to hedger and recover, but he’s also not big enough to.

to defend a lot. It’s just like, what am I supposed to do out here except be food? You’re right. was a rough, actually, Grant Williams had a pretty decent night given what was asked of him, but just was put in a very difficult position. It’s also like, that’s another philosophical emphasis from the Cavs. When Kenny was explaining the defensive slippage before the game,

Chris (31:10.968)

Yeah, right. I supposed to just like, take charges?

Jimmy Watkins (31:36.136)

He meant, asked him about like, you know, there’s kind of an offensive shift to a more offensive minded attack here. You’re shooting more threes, which create more long rebounds. You’re playing faster, which can help her skeleton the game up a little bit. Does that have anything to do with, he mentioned offensive rebounding, you know, it’s hurting their transition defense. And that’s kind of as a, as a team, you kind of have to make a choice, you know, for a long time teams were saying, Nope, we are going to send five guys back. You guys can have that defensive rebound. We care the most about.

getting our defense set in the Cavs, I think rightfully so because given to Ethan’s point, they got two twin towers down there are saying, well, we think we can get some of these. We can create some extra possessions for ourselves. Particularly when that’s your mindset, you better go get them. You better go get them if that’s what you’re trying to do. If you’re kind of putting yourself behind the eight ball on defense sometimes and they’re just not doing it and it’s hurting them on defense.

Chris (32:23.779)

Mm-hmm.

Ethan Sands (32:31.476)

Yeah, it’s like a, can’t be a double-edged sword, right? Like if you are gonna go and say that you’re gonna attack the offensive glass, your transition defense can be a little worse, right? But if you’re gonna be a team that’s not gonna be great at getting offensive rebounds, your transition defense shouldn’t suffer, because you should be getting back on defense, right? Like it’s just, it’s an interesting concept to me.

Really threw me off when I was like watching the game tonight But also like you look at the numbers when it comes to the defensive rebounding and I believe the Cavs out rebounded them by 16 on the defensive glass like it was a Big discrepancy that I feel like they can clean up on the offensive end When it comes to what they have to offer also Jared Allen

getting 15 boards, he’s known as a rebounder, and he’s also fighting for stuff as well. So I expect it to get better. I just like, it’s something to keep an eye on, especially if you play these five out teams who got feisty guys and people that like to run up and down the court and all these different things. But I wanted to end it this way, right? Obviously Boston, rematch, all these different things. But if they’re gonna be without,

Dean Wade, Isaac, all these different players that went down tonight, along with Max and Sam, who are already more than likely gonna be out for Tuesday’s matchup. Do they pull Karras LaVert out of his six-man role and put him into starting lineup?

Because he’s really he’s been really comfortable there and we’ve talked about that or at an abundance Chris like he loves being in that six-man role and I think There is a slight agenda to try and help him get that six man of the year award this year as well But if is he not the best option to play the three would it not be or well I guess you would have Donovan back. So interesting. Okay. What do you think?

Chris (34:31.85)

Man, it’s tough. I think you have to go with Karas, honestly. And I totally understand the idea of, you know, keeping him in a specific role where he’s comfortable. You don’t want to yo-yo him, start, bench, start, bench. But if they’re not gonna, I don’t know that they’re not gonna have Isaac. Isaac’s a tough dude. Isaac seemed to be walking okay.

Isaac historically has recovered quickly. So I’m not ruling him out the same kind of way yet. But if they’re not going to have Isaac, if they’re not going to have Dean, I just don’t think downsizing against the Celtics is the best approach that you can have. And look, it’s just a starting lineup. It doesn’t mean that you’re married to that for the rest of the game and your rotations are going to be what they are. And you could finish with somebody different, but historically, Karis has played well.

against the Celtics. His style fits against a team like the Celtics. He has the versatility to guard one through four based on certain matchups against the Celtics. I definitely think he can guard one through four. So I think he’s the most logical fit. I also think, you know, if you’re going to have Donovan back, the reasons why you went with Ty Jerome in the starting lineup for this game against Charlotte.

some of those get negated. Part of the reason why the Cavs wanted Ty out there is another ball handler, take pressure off of Darius Garland, allow Darius to play off the ball at various points, replicate the outside shooting in a different kind of way, he’s a better shooter, and then Keris LaVert. So, but if you have Donovan, you you feel like you have enough shot creation, you feel like you have enough playmaking, you feel like you have

enough guys to run your offense, get you into the sets that you don’t need Ty in that starting group as well. And I just think having Donovan play the three or Ty play the three, however you want to look at it, probably a lot against a team like the Celtics, probably not the best approach against a team like the Celtics. So if it’s not a Coro, if it’s not Wade, if they can’t go, I would go with Karis. I don’t make the decisions, but

Chris (36:57.568)

I would go with Keris and I think that’s the most logical fit.

Jimmy Watkins (37:01.584)

The other thing is like you don’t have to you don’t have to blow up Caris’s whole minute minutes pattern just by starting him. Like if you if he’s comfortable being one of the guys who helps anchor that that second year, you can still make that work. Have him play alongside Ty Jerome coming off the bench there. Even if he’s starting. But I would say one thing that I’m very confident of confident of.

If you’re not going to see Dean Wade or Isaac Okoro on Tuesday, we’re going to see a whole bunch more of this zone, Because if you’re having trouble keeping the hornets and bulls out of the paint in man-to-man defense, boy, I got bad news for you about the Boston Celtics. OK? Now, the trick is with the Boston Celtics, the easiest way to get someone out of the zone is just make a bunch of threes. And well, what do know? The Boston Celtics make a bunch of threes.

The reason, one of the reasons the Hornets, mean the Hornets were flat out just missing a lot of open threes. Of course, the Cavs would tell you that the opponent’s open three shooting luck has slanted the other way so far this season, point taken. But there’s just not as many Cody Martins, no disrespect, fine NBA player on the Boston Celtics shooting some of those above the break threes as there are on the Charlotte Hornets. It’s a different ballgame.

Chris (38:01.015)

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (38:30.376)

When I’m coming up here, I think you’re going to kind of be grasping for answers defensively against Boston if you don’t have your two. Which is not like, I’m not saying anything controversial here. You’re missing your two best perimeter defenders, so you might have trouble defending the defending NBA champions. Wow. What a novel concept.

Chris (38:50.573)

You

Ethan Sands (38:51.542)

Good on you Jimmy And just the last thing that I wanted to point out which I thought was interesting was how many more shots the Charlotte Hornets got up than the Cavs right like they had 26 more shot attempts they were over a hundred shot attempts for the game, which is Astronomical right like and Jimmy obviously they weren’t shooting the best. They still shot like 38 39 percent

from three because they were taking so many. They shot 53s today. That’s just an anomaly when it comes to shot attempts and all those different things. I just think it’s going to be interesting what the Cavs are going to implement against the Boston Celtics. And like we’ve talked about, it’s definitely going to depend on what personnel they have on the court to throw at these nasty Celtics that

have players that can not only come off the bench and make an impact and all those different things. I’m most looking forward to seeing if Peyton Pritchard is gonna hit a buzzer-beaten three again, because that’s his MO.

Chris (39:59.95)

I mean, I do think it’s going to be nice from a Cavs perspective, even though they are down bodies that are important, to feel like they have the kind of offensive firepower to consistently hang with a team like Boston. You know, there were so many times last year, whether it was throughout the regular season or throughout the postseason, where offense felt like a chore and the Cavs had to work so hard.

to get quality looks against these high level teams. And some of it they were able to do because Donovan was just unbelievably great at times. And Evan Mobley was dominant at times. And look, he’s going to have an advantage. Playing against Al Horford, we saw how that went in the Eastern Conference semi-finals. Evan Mobley getting the ball in space, Evan Mobley getting the ball on the move against Al Horford.

That’s advantageous for the Cavs. That’s something that they’re going to have to exploit. But the fact that they come into this, you know, with the kind of offense that they have, it just, it feels like there’s more of a consistent fighting chance against these high level opponents. And if you’re going to have to go into a game against the Celtics without Dean Wade, Isaac Kikoro, if they’re not able to play, then your pathway to success,

isn’t really on the defensive end of the floor. It’s out shoot the Celtics. It’s out score the Celtics. And that sounds silly because not a lot of teams can do that. I think the Cavs are capable of it. I wouldn’t have said that last year. But the way that they’re playing offense, I think them having another pathway to consistent success and winning games is really, really important.

And even though there’s been defensive slippage and even though the Cavs defense hasn’t been up to its standard, they’re still for a majority of this run dominating opponents because opponents simply have no answers for them on the defensive end of the floor. There is no team that has found a way to make the Cavs uncomfortable on the offensive end of the floor for four quarters. And that’s what it’s going to take against a team like Boston.

Ethan Sands (42:15.232)

Just a third quarter though.

Jimmy Watkins (42:15.826)

Yeah. Yeah. I’ve had, I kind of had that a big picture version of that thought after the game. A couple of people said that when they were asked the defensive slippage question, well, you know, that’s where we hang our hat. That’s our identity. What if that’s changing? And this could probably, this could be a podcast for another day, right? But like there, there is kind of a trade off here where like, if you’re going to be, if you’re going to play more for round one,

Chris (42:31.95)

We’re here.

Jimmy Watkins (42:45.67)

with split up the bigs a little bit more, give Evan Mobley that space that we’re talking about. If you’re gonna empower your Sam Merrells more, your George Nyang’s more, if you’re gonna play faster, again, you’re gonna invite more long rebounds by shooting more threes, it’s a two-way game where you’re always playing both ways basically. So there’s gonna be some sort of trade-off. I wonder what…

What’s the trade off that you’re comfortable with? So in the past, the Cavs have had the number one defense with a bullet and a top 10-ish offense that frankly craters in the postseason. So it doesn’t matter what it ranks in the regular season. And now the last, after the either, I think before the bullies game, they were first in offense and 10th in defense. I think I’d prefer the second one, but you don’t, you know, you don’t want, you know, 10th is kind of like the benchmark, right? You want to be top 10 in both. If you slip further than that.

Chris (43:14.508)

Right.

Jimmy Watkins (43:42.568)

Now it gets a little dicey, particularly with some of the firepower. That’s just the thought I keep having, is everyone keeps saying, this is where we hang our hat. I think that you still want to be a great defensive team, obviously. You still have two elite rim protectors. You still have Dean Wade and Isaac Koro. But there’s clearly an identity and philosophy shift happening here.

Ethan Sands (44:04.468)

And I know a lot of fans are excited for this game, but I don’t know if there’s anybody more excited for this matchup than Jared Allen, especially because he didn’t get to play in the Eastern Conference semifinals. Mike got a point to prove.

Chris (44:15.458)

Tide to Rome a close second on that one.

Ethan Sands (44:17.728)

Fair enough, I’ll give you that. I’ll give you that. But obviously Jerry’s gonna get more playing time, minutes, and gonna get to go up against Al Horford, maybe have Evan Mobley, like you mentioned, Jimmy, match up with Jason Tatum at the four. What that’s gonna look like on a defensive and offensive battle. But we’ll get to preview the game and a little bit more ahead of it tomorrow. So with all that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of The Wine and Gold.

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