Takeaways from Cavs first preseason game: Wine and Gold Talk podcast

Takeaways:

• Preseason games are not overly significant but provide insights.
• Kenny Atkinson’s offense emphasizes tempo and movement.
• Evan Mobley and Darius Garland are expected to take significant leaps this season.
• Jarrett Allen’s role is stable but may not see significant growth from last season.

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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.

Ethan Sands

What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. Me and Chris Fedor, Cavs Beat reporter, cleveland.com are coming to you immediately after the Cavs 116-112 loss to the Chicago Bulls in the first preseason game of the season. Chris, overview, takeaways, what you see.

Chris (00:40.29)

You know how I go, Ethan. I don’t make too much of a big deal about preseason basketball. I totally understand what it’s all about and how it’s treated by a lot of these organizations. So I never want to go overboard when it comes to takeaways or things along those lines. But I do think tonight kind of showed the vision of who and what the Cavs ultimately want to be under Kenny Atkinson. It’s early into this process.

There’s so much more that we have to learn about Kenny and his offense and his lineups and the rotations and all those different things. But if you were to ask Kenny Atkinson, Hey, what do you want your offense to look like for the majority of the game? before the second half collapse, it was what was on display against the bulls. It was up tempo. was pushing the pace with a purpose. It was getting into actions quicker.

It was diversifying the offense. was continuous movement on the offensive end. It was a bunch of three pointers, 48 of them tonight. was early clock attacks on the offensive end. I was talking to one of the players in the locker room off to the side before he left the locker room tonight after the game, Ethan. And one of the things that I said, I said, you guys didn’t have any grenades tonight. And you know.

The Cavs talked last year about getting caught into situations where it was late in the clock and somebody just had to hoist a shot and they called those grenades. And there was maybe one of those tonight and it wasn’t even, you know, as the shot clock was about to expire necessarily because they didn’t run quality offense. It’s just because, you know, that was the situation that they were in. I think there was only one and it was toward the very, very end of a quarter and it was Dean Wade or something like that.

But for the most part, the rhythm offensively, the way that they flowed offensively, it’s what they were hoping for. It’s what they want to be. It’s what they want to continue to build.

Ethan Sands (02:47.576)

I know the first quarter especially had Cavs fans licking their chops, right? They were so excited not only because the season had officially really gotten underway, obviously it’s preseason, but just being back in Rock and Morton Fieldhouse, was still electric. And I remember just reading through our subtext and it was like,

Five minutes into the first quarter and Evan Mobley had already done a couple of moves and gone to the basket. He had taken a couple of three pointers. Chris obviously wrote about after the game how the first play was orchestrated for Evan Mobley strategically. And that’s going to be by design and that’s going to be something that they’re going to look forward to. But the subtext was like, my goodness, Evan Mobley. And I was like, yeah, this is the reality that we are living in.

Chris (03:34.67)

I think that’s

Ethan Sands (03:39.582)

And the unfortunate thing for the starting lineup as we know Didn’t get to play a whole lot of games together last season and it feels like and it looks like That that might have to wait a little bit longer for them to see if they’re gonna get to run Together a little bit more Max Druse went down in the second quarter after attempting to take a charge with a right right hip contusion and Chris hip hip anything are very funky weird injuries

Can you talk a little bit about what you’ve heard on this situation, what you saw, and how this could impact the calves?

Chris (04:18.062)

Well the thing that we know about the Cavs, Ethan, is that historically they are very cautious when it comes to injuries and bringing guys back from injury. And it’s so early into this process, training camp in Sarasota just wrapped up, they just had their first preseason game. There are three more preseason games remaining on the schedule. It’s about two weeks away from the regular season opener. They are going to be cautious with Maxtruss. They understand

how important he is to their success. They understand how he completes their starting lineup. They did look different with Dean Wade at small forward as opposed to Max. That shouldn’t be a surprise. Max is one of the most important players on this roster. Forget the stats, forget the production. The way that he enhances their offense is something that other guys on this roster just don’t do. So he completes that starting five. He makes it make sense.

With his gravity, with his movement, with his shooting, with his ability to be an offensive trigger, all of those different things. It was clear that the Cavs were trying to work through the non-Max Struce minutes at the small forward spot, especially in the second half. But this is about the big picture in play. Max is always somebody who wants to be out there. He’s a competitor. He’s very, very tough. He comes from the Miami culture where

You don’t miss games, you don’t complain about things, you don’t make excuses and all that kind of stuff. But I would be surprised if they rushed this thing at all when it comes to Max, just because of how they’ve historically operated and where we are in terms of the calendar. Look, if he’s good enough to play on Thursday against Indiana, then he’s gonna play. But I just don’t think it’s a situation where they’re all that worried about it, number one, and where they’re all that…

single-minded to get him back on the floor because they’ve got to work through things with their lineups and they’ve got to build rhythm and camaraderie and stuff like that. There’s enough time for that to happen.

Ethan Sands (06:24.872)

That’s the one thing that was very clear in that first quarter, how comfortable that starting lineup was playing together. I know Donovan had talked about having guys come back to Cleveland around Labor Day, majority of those being some starting players as well and how they were able to mesh and kind of get together. Cause like I mentioned earlier, they didn’t get to play together a whole lot during last season, last regular season. But I think

That is a big reason why it was wonky when you throw Dean Wade into that. Not only to the fact that Dean Wade has not played small forward in Kenny Atkinson’s system through training camp, all those other things. Kenny actually said that that was something he was trying out and something that they hadn’t done before. But to that same extent, that makes me curious, right? It makes me interested. It makes me trying to figure out what the possibilities are for that.

to be what they do depending on the length of which Max Drews might be out as Chris mentioned and is completely right about. Max Drews wants to be back playing probably tomorrow if they would let him, right? And I think it’s really interesting just because of a lot of what our subscribers, subtexters, listeners, fans of the Cavs say about the small four position and how Max Drews might be a little undersized, how Isaac O’Coral might be a little undersized, how JB Biggersaff used

Chris (07:49.752)

Yeah.

Ethan Sands (07:51.488)

Isaac Acora last year instead of Dean Wade in those situations. And for me, I think Dean Wade could be the perfect solution for the beginning of the season when it comes to if Max True has to miss some time because of the limited amount of reps that he needs, the, the little, the gravity that he still holds at the three point position. And then the defensive juggernaut that the calves would be.

on beat with Jared Allen, Evan Mobley and Dean Wade all being above 6′10 and still being able to switch at every position that they will be guarding from three to the five. And Dean Wade even in some occasions can guard a point guard or two. We saw him guard Cade Cunningham last year. Chris, I just want to get your thoughts on this situation if Max Drews is going to have to miss some time.

Chris (08:32.974)

you

Chris (08:45.23)

I think it’s certainly an option. Kenny Ekinson said before the game tonight, Ethan, and I thought it was really, really interesting, you know, he basically said, we’re going to hold things. We’re not going to show our hand here in the preseason. So I definitely know that there are things that they have worked on behind the scenes when it comes to specific lineups that Kenny may or may not unveil in the preseason because he wants to wait to the regular season.

And one of those is what the Cavs are going to term a spread lineup. They’ve got their big lineup that they consider Jared Allen, Evan Mobley together. Maybe Dean Wade’s part of that as well. And he can go three bigs if Max Struess is going to miss time. But the other one is going to be a spread lineup. And it’s one of, it’s probably going to be Evan Mobley at the five as opposed to Jared Allen at the five. And it’s the one that the Cavs really think is going to open up the floor.

create more space, I bet Donovan Mitchell is going to be a part of that lineup as well, so that he has more space to attack downhill when the defenders are pulled out to the perimeter and the Cavs internally, Ethan, are very, very excited about the possibility of that spread lineup. I do think Dean Wade’s a part of that. So that makes it a little bit difficult when it comes to the combinations and the rotations and when you’re going to get these guys on the floor.

I do think the Cavs really like the idea of Dean Wade next to Evan Mobley. I do think the Cavs like the idea potentially of George Niang next to Evan Mobley, especially on the offensive end of the floor, because he can space, he can knock down threes, he can be a threat out there on the perimeter. But, but that was a look that if you notice the Cavs did not use tonight in the first preseason game against Chicago. All of the minutes that Evan Mobley and Jared Allen played were together.

All of the minutes that Donovan Mitchell and Darius Garland played were together. and eventually, I don’t know if it’s going to be in the preseason. It may just be opening night against Toronto, but the Gavs are going to unveil this spread lineup that players are very, very excited about because they have seen behind the scenes and practices and scrimmages, what the spacing looks like and what it can look like and what a spread court means.

Chris (11:05.24)

for some of their most important Attack the Rim guys.

Ethan Sands (11:10.76)

Yeah, it was a little interesting today to see Kenny Atkinson running out those hockey substitutions. Everybody in, everybody out. But I think it’s really interesting when you talk about the leader of this group, right? It’s always going to be Donovan Mitchell. It’s going to be his show, his team, all of those things. But this is what makes Donovan Mitchell one of the better leaders and one of the better stars around the NBA to me. His unselfishness, his humbleness.

Chris (11:15.854)

you

Ethan Sands (11:38.972)

his ability to know when his teammates need to get going and being willing and even happy to make those things happen, right? The understanding is Evan Mobley needs to take a jump this season. Evan Mobley needs to have the ball in his hand this season. Multiple times during today’s game against the Bulls, Donovan Mitchell was showing off his flashy passing, getting the ball into Evan Mobley, driving and kicking, all these other things, and doing it either with a slight grin

or in a very big smile on his face, knowing that he was able to get the ball to Evan Mobley, showcase what the big man has been working on, and Evan Mobley having the confidence to go and do it himself. Same thing with Darius Garland, right? We talk about Darius needing to shoot the ball more, needing to get his uptick of three-pointers and attempts, something that he mentioned in his press conference saying, he could have got a couple more up there. Obviously he says he’s got enough.

enough rounds of his gun to get up to eight or nine per game. But the other thing is like when you look at the numbers, you look at the stats and Donovan Mitchell averaged 19.7 field goal attempts per game. Sure, it’s preseason. Call me crazy for looking at stats in the first game of the preseason and I know Chris is, but he took just eight shots today and just three three-pointers. He averaged, I believe it was almost.

Chris (12:53.123)

Yeah.

Ethan Sands (13:02.782)

10 a game last year and that’s just him getting the ball. He had four assists in the first half, Darius Garland also five assists in the first half. To me, when we talk about the transition offense, Chris, the importance wasn’t because we talked about how important it was when JB Biggerstaff was trying it, move the ball and get the ball up the court. The difference to me was

When J.U. Biggerstaff was saying that, he was saying, Darius, get the ball up the floor with your feet, with your dribble, whatever. In Kenny Atkinson’s offense, it’s get the ball out of your hands, get it up the floor, and let somebody else create because you have so many different playmakers on this team.

Chris (13:33.688)

you

Chris (13:45.838)

So I think in simple terms, Ethan, this season for the Cavs is all about Darius Garland and Evan Mobley. And they hold the keys to where the Cavs are ultimately going to go. Because I think there’s an understanding, and there should be, that Donovan Mitchell is going to play at an MVP caliber, All-Star caliber level. That’s what he’s done since he’s come here to Cleveland. The Cavs have an idea nightly.

What they’re going to get from Donovan Mitchell. They’re going to get leadership. They’re going to get scoring. They’re going to playmaking. They’re going to get all of the things that make him a superstar and one of the 15 best players in the entire NBA. Keris Laverte, I think he’s going to give the Cavs similar to what he gave them last year, where at times he was in the conversation for six man of the year. And at times fans wanted to rip their hair out when he was doing some things that the Keris tends to do that,

can hijack an offense and can frustrate people and some may say he gets a little bit out of control. Those things are gonna happen. That’s who Karras is. Karras the player is not going to change significantly from the guy that he’s been since being here in Cleveland. Maybe he’s gonna shoot a little bit better from two point range. Maybe he’s gonna finish a little bit better at the rim. But he is who he is.

at this stage of his career. And I don’t think there’s anybody else like either coming off the bench or that the Cavs would put in into a starting lineup if injuries happened or whatever that is going to blossom significantly. You know what I mean? Just because they’re in this new offense, this new system, Sam Merrill is who he is. He’s a specialist. He’s a knockdown three point shooter. He’s a spacer. He brings gravity and all that kind of stuff.

Like Max Strews is an impactful guy, but I don’t think you’re going to get much more production from Max than what he gave the Cavs in his first year. Maybe he’s going to shoot it a little bit better than what he did if he gets more quality looks this year. But the bottom line is like a lot of these guys on the roster, either their role is established or they are who they are. Right? The evolution for this organization comes from

Chris (16:07.33)

Does Darius Garland get back to his All-Star level that he was at a couple of years ago? And does Evan Mobley take that leap? If those two things happen, then it’s a different kind of conversation about the Cavs. Donovan Mitchell knows those things, right? Donovan is, in a way, trying to empower Darius. In a way, he’s trying to empower Evan Mobley. It was by design that Evan Mobley…

got as many touches as he did tonight in preseason game number coming off this summer where so much of the conversation was about Evan, Evan, Evan, Evan, Evan’s different, Evan’s usage, Evan’s touches, Evan shot attempts and all those different things. Donovan understands the importance of Evan Mobley to this organization taking the next step. He understands what it would mean for this organization for Darius Garland to get back to his all-star.

And Donovan’s the kind of guy who, you know, he can pick and choose his spots. He can find ways to get his teammates involved. He can find ways to impact the game in a variety of different ways. And I think you’re seeing Donovan as the leader of this team, trying to understand. Understanding what this season is about and trying to empower those two guys specifically and build them up as much as he possibly can.

Ethan Sands (17:36.026)

Yeah, and I mean, I don’t think it’s trying at this point Chris like Donovan has said on multiple occasions I have told Evan I’ve yelled at Evan be more aggressive do that like you need to be you and I think today was just a glimpse especially in that first half to what Evan Mobley was is gonna be capable of it reminded me to another extent of the Boston Celtics series, but

Chris (17:46.328)

Mm-hmm.

Ethan Sands (18:02.108)

I asked Evan afterwards, I was like, was this just a matchup thing? Cause you’re, you have more agility, more mobility, more whatever against Vucic and he was like, nah, this is just something I plan on doing every night, which is what you want him to say. And obviously we can’t leave out the last member of the core four who is still very much important to this team and to the development of this group, Jared Allen.

What I liked the most from what I saw from Jarrett tonight was also his ability to handle the rock a little bit, right? We saw Jarrett at the top of the key having Evan Mobley setting screens for him and then setting, giving a pass off. And even one of my favorite plays from tonight was a double screen that led to a Darius Garland dime through the middle of the defense to Evan Mobley for an easy bucket at the rim. And that was set up by

Chris (18:36.088)

Mm-hmm.

Ethan Sands (18:58.62)

Jared Allen starting with the ball in his hands at the top of the key. Kenny Atkinson had talked a lot about Evan Mobley being at the top of the key, starting offense and all those things. But more so today, Evan Mobley was seen bringing the ball up the floor after getting a rebound and initiating offense that way. Chris, I just don’t want to leave out Jared from this conversation because of how impactful he is.

Chris (19:13.379)

Mm-hmm.

Ethan Sands (19:22.982)

and how much he means to this team, one, but two, also what he did for this team last year and how that’s gonna have to continue into this next season.

Chris (19:32.492)

Yeah, but my point is I just don’t know that there’s a lot of room for him to get significantly better. He had a career year last year. Career high in points, right around career high in rebounds, right around career high in offensive rebounds. He was in the conversation for all defense. I know that I was putting him in the conversation and I know that other people around the NBA had him in that same conversation. So I just don’t know.

Like how much better is he going to be? How much better should we expect him to be from the guy that he was last year where he was a staple of everything that they did offensively and he was the anchor on defense, right? Should we expect him to boost his, his point total from 16 to 18? I think that’s a little bit too much, right? You know what I mean? So I just think when we’re talking about like room for internal growth and evolution, the two guys are Darius and

Evan to me and it doesn’t mean that Jared’s not important. Of course he’s important. He has a huge role on this team. Their winning percentage when he plays versus when he doesn’t is striking because he is so involved in everything that the Cavs do at both ends of the floor. And you never want to discount Jared and you never want to discount like these other players because this is a deep talented team. But the bottom line is like

the room for growth and evolution comes primarily with Darius Garland and Evan Mobley. And I know that’s a lot to put on Evan. And I know that’s a lot to put on Darius. But when you make that kind of money, when you’re viewed that kind of way, that’s what comes with it. That’s the level of responsibility that comes with that power and that kind of contract. And it’s time for both of those guys to take that kind of leap that we’re talking about here.

because no longer can they say, like, not being used properly, offensive system is flawed, you know, doesn’t really fit my skill set, doesn’t put me in the best positions to be maximized and all those things, because it seems like based on everything that we continued here and based on what we did see tonight, albeit just one preseason game, but the glimpse that we saw tonight,

Chris (21:57.496)

Like a lot of this stuff that they’re doing on the offensive end of the floor, this system is designed to help bring out the best in Darius and it’s designed to help bring out the best in Evan Mobley as well.

Ethan Sands (22:11.698)

Yeah, and I think the Cavs would be happy if not ecstatic if Jared Allen continued the same play that he had last year, right? To be in those kinds of conversations. Would Jared Allen like to see his numbers go up a little bit? Sure, that’s every NBA player in the world, right? But like for this system to work and partially of the reason why I think Dean Wade is a good fit if he were to slide in for Max Drews while he’s out is because

Jared doesn’t need a whole lot of love. Jared doesn’t need a whole lot of touches to be successful. It’s how he impacts winning around the ball and how he sets screens for everybody else and makes everybody else look great at the same time. And ultimately that helps him out as well because sometimes the defenders get confused and just leave him open at the rim. But I think it’s just continuing for him to be himself.

figure out where he’s gonna be able to make his money’s worth, where Donovan, Darius, and Evan are succeeding, and then playing off of that this season. It’s not more so for me for him to make a jump. I don’t think that’s what we’re looking for from him. We’re looking for him to be a stable, consistent, just valuable role player on this core four squad. And I think that for him to do that, that is what the Cavs need.

Chris (23:15.054)

Thanks.

Chris (23:30.766)

Hmm.

Ethan Sands (23:37.264)

and what he needs in Kenny Atkinson’s system to be someone that not only finds a way to stay on this team, but also is somebody that feels like he’s still being valued by the organization and in his role.

Chris (23:51.702)

Yeah, and I think he knows that. think everybody with the organization would say that. But the truth is, like in terms of untapped potential on the offensive end of the floor, there’s just more with Evan Mobley. And I think you saw glimpses of that tonight. It’s a level of versatility that he brings. The play that impressed me the most, Ethan, and the thing overall that impressed me the most with Evan, just specifically, is that he was decisive.

He was confident. He wasn’t hesitating with any of his decisions or any of the moves that he was trying to make. The decisions were coming quick and that was great to see from Evan. But the play that impressed me the most and he did a lot of different things tonight. He scored in a lot of different ways. Even the threes that he got were good quality looks. Front rimmed as usual because that’s that tends to be his miss.

He doesn’t always finish his follow through and stuff like that. I’m not a shot doctor or anything, but from the people that I talk to that know these things really, really well, that break these things down, that see his, his shooting numbers from the Noah technology that the calves use, lot of his misses, a majority of his misses are front rim because he just doesn’t get the release high enough and he doesn’t follow through consistently enough. And it’s something that the calves are working on.

But those were two quality looks and he took those with confidence and it was great to see. He finished with both hands around the rim. He powered through contact and had that driving in one. He had like a Tim Duncan-esque bank shot from like the elbow. That was really cool to see. He had like a turnaround shot. He had a little floater. So he showed a lot of different elements to his offense.

But the one that stood out to me was he was out there on the perimeter and this is one of the advantages of having somebody like Evan, especially if he’s going to play the five apart from Jared Allen. He was out there on the perimeter. He pulled Vujicic to the perimeter and he understood his advantage. His advantage was his quickness, his length, his agility, and just his speed overall.

Chris (26:09.696)

if Vuch is going to be out there on the perimeter, if these fives are going to be out there on the perimeter, attack their feet. You’re quicker than them. You’re faster than them. You’re more athletic than them. And he pulled Vuch out to the perimeter. He was in the corner and he drove left-handed, extended to the rim and threw it down with one hand. But that was an example of where like playing Evan at the five.

can be really, really advantageous for this organization.

Ethan Sands (26:41.222)

Yeah. And I mean, I remember that I play very well because it kept getting shown on the, on the mega board or whatever they call it. I, you mongotron. There you go. But I feel like the, the other thing with that, and this is where I’m going to end the podcast is that this is the first time I think we’ve seen Evan allowed to be on the perimeter and just standing in a corner.

Chris (26:50.583)

Umongo-Tron

Hmm.

Ethan Sands (27:08.188)

when Jared Allen is in the dunker spot rather than being right next to him in the the dunker spot. So it’s like you’re spreading the offense. You’re not playing five out because Jared Allen is not going to be on the perimeter. Maybe if he’s coming down in transition and ends up in the corner, that might be where he ends up. But I feel like this is the offense that is going to allow them to untap all the potential that they have been wanting.

Chris (27:14.734)

Mm-hmm.

Ethan Sands (27:35.314)

something that you mentioned earlier, you said they can’t make that excuse anymore, that this isn’t the offense that they needed, this isn’t all those different things. And I think that’s exactly right, because just in the little glimpse, just in the one game that we saw, if there is more that we haven’t gotten to see, I’m already impressed, because it feels like this team is growing substantially, and it feels like there’s a lot of room to grow when it comes to

the offensive side of the ball, even when they aren’t using everything that they have in their repertoire. all righty.

Chris (28:11.028)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then you just start thinking to yourself, okay, what does this all look like when Donovan Mitchell plays 36 to 38 minutes, right? What does this all look like when Darius Garland plays 32 to 36 minutes? You you start looking at those kinds of things and you can get excited about the potential and the possibility of this team being what Kenny Atkinson ultimately wants it to be.

48 threes tonight. Kenny said that’s about the number that they want. I don’t know exactly what the pace numbers were, but it felt like they were playing faster, even if they didn’t really get out on the fast break and things along those lines. And I just think the style that he wants to play, Ethan, well, look, we have questions about the spacing and the dynamic between Jared Allen and Evan Mobley. And I think those are going to continue to exist. But when you look at the majority of the personnel on this

the feeling is like it fits the kind of style that Kenny wants to play and it’s the kind of style that the players have wanted to play and I think when you start playing up tempo and you make quicker decisions and you have continuous movement and everybody is touching the ball on a given possession and feeling like they’re part of it and they can get into a rhythm and it’s not

Over-reliant on the pick and roll like all those things It seems like it’s going to make for a happier group. It seems like it’s going to make for a more functional Consistent offense that that doesn’t bog down and start getting stagnant as much as what it had in the past

Ethan Sands (30:02.598)

All right, Chris, I know fans are listening like, well, what about that three pointer to end the game? Why aren’t we talking about the bench players, the role players, yada, yada, yada? That will be a different podcast. We wanted to talk about the guys that are the core. We wanted to talk about the guys that are going to have the most impact on winning for this Cavs team going into the regular season. So with that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of The Wine.

Chris (30:16.238)

another time.

Ethan Sands (30:32.432)

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