Cavs’ depth shines in home opener, balanced attack propels them to 2-0 start: Wine and Gold Talk podcast

Takeaways:

• Ty Jerome has been a stabilizing force for the second unit.
• Max Strus injury has forced the spotlight on the team’s depth.
• Dean Wade is taking more 3-point shots and showing confidence.
• The Cavs need to take care of business against weaker opponents, as the Eastern Conference is competitive, making early wins crucial.

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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.

Ethan Sands

What up Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. Me and Chris are coming to you guys after the home opener at Rocket Mortgage Fieldhouse. Chris, the Cavs are 2-0. Obviously, they should be 2-0 with the two people that they face going into this season. What do you take away initially from tonight’s matchup?

Chris (00:34.136)

Well, I don’t think the Cavs played great, honestly, Ethan, especially on the offensive end of the floor. second half, it felt like the ball got sticky. Things were stagnant. Donovan didn’t have a great night. And I think that that kind of shows just the beauty of this team. Kenny Atkinson talks for the last couple of months about

We’ve got to celebrate our depth. have a lot of depth. We have to lean into that. I want to play 10, 11 guys. This is why. On a night that Donovan Mitchell scores 19 points and goes 8 of 21 from the field and 1 of 8 from three point range, they won comfortably against the Pistons where they were in control of the game for the entire second half. They led by 18 at one point and they won by double digits. So

It shows the depth of this team. shows the balance of this team. It shows how everybody’s kind of involved with an offense like this that is free flowing, a lot of cutting, a lot of ball movement, pushing the ball up the floor. And I think the biggest thing is yes, you have to put it in perspective because it’s Toronto for opening night and it was Detroit for the home opener. But we’re talking about two games in and

All of that conversation about we’re going to be a defense first team still, even though JB Biggerstaff is not here, we want to make that our identity and we want to play to our strengths. First game against Toronto, 106. Tonight against Detroit, 101. Once again, through two games, the Cavs have shown that defense still can be their calling card. Defense still.

can be this team’s identity. And everybody in the locker room has been talking about that. And everybody on the coaching staff has been talking about that. And they’ve got this whiteboard in their locker room and written on the whiteboard was the pregame plan. And the number one thing that was written on that board, it wasn’t push the pace. It wasn’t look for easy shots. It was defense, number one defense. And right next to it,

Chris (02:54.636)

I saw it. It was written there in marker. Stay true to who you are.

Ethan Sands (03:00.625)

And this is a team that is already knowing who they are, Chris, right? This is an identity-based team. Something that we talked about before the game is a large part because of JB Bickerstaff and trying to build on what the legacy left behind. But Chris, you mentioned the defense, right? This is a team that after two games has a defensive rating of 102. Like that is great. That’s a great defensive rating. And then the offensive rating for this team is 124.5.

for a net rating of 22.5, right? And you mentioned it early on. This is a team that is no longer going to be give Donovan Mitchell the ball, get out of the way. It’s get everybody involved. It’s six people on this team when it came to the game against the Pistons scored in double figures. Jared Allen said it after the game. Nobody scored 20 points and it still felt like we were all good about how we played. We all did our jobs to a T and

Chris (03:39.405)

Right.

Chris (03:56.376)

That means.

Ethan Sands (03:57.937)

We talked about Dean Wade being able to shoot the ball more and have more confidence, right? He had 19 points tied, Donovan Mitchell for the high for the Cavs. He had five of seven on three pointer, seven of nine from the field. And that doesn’t even get to talk about his defense. And cause he was the highest plus minus rated player for the Cav with plus 14, right? And the other player that I know you want to talk about tonight is Ty Jerome and

Something that we have been talking about for since Ty Jerome came back from his ankle injury during training camp and all these things Kobe Allman said it right he was the MVP of September and it’s showing now he got more comfortable as Preseason came along and now it looks like he’s ready to run this offense for the second unit

Chris (04:52.194)

Yeah, and I think the thing that Kenny Atkinson has talked about with Ty is the thing that we’re seeing. Just the steadiness that he brings to this offense, his ability to get everybody organized and put them in the right pieces. And I think if you talk about Ty, part of this is that he played for Kenny in Golden State. So he knows what to expect with this offense.

He knows how to run this offense. He knows the things that matter most in an offense like this. He knows and has built trust with Kenny Atkinson where he can basically be an extension of the coach. And I thought Ty changed the game, honestly, in that second quarter. You know, it was a competitive game in the first quarter and for much of the second quarter as well. And then Ty ripped off 10 points in the second quarter in about eight minutes.

And by the end of the second quarter, it just felt like the Cavs were in control. So Ty coming off the bench has the ability to do that. He has the ability to change the game. He has the ability to change the pace. He has the ability to change the mood of the team. And it’s not just him knocking down shots. It’s not just him driving to the basket. It’s him just like having this calm demeanor.

And an ability to like stabilize the second unit. I don’t want to use this comparison because I don’t think he’s the same kind of player, but it’s what the calves used to look at Ricky Rubio to do for them, for that second unit. And that’s the role that that tie is going to continue to be in. And it’s going to be really, really difficult for Kenny Atkinson.

to take him out of this rotation, even when Max Struse comes back and he’s back to being in the starting lineup and he’s at full strength coming back from that ankle injury, because there is a place for somebody like Ty Jerome on this team and you can see the benefit to having a steady, reliable backup point guard like him.

Ethan Sands (07:08.321)

We’ve talked a lot about Darius Garland being able to switch speeds and go at defenders because he’s able to slow his pace, speed up his pace, all of those different things, especially with his ball handling and keeping it on his string. But when I asked Jared Allen and Ty Jerome or Jared Allen and Dean Wade after the game about Ty Jerome and all those different things, they mentioned that Ty had the slowest second step they have ever seen. Right?

Jared Allen even made the joke that saying that we’re still waiting for him to take that other step because he can really get into the lane and then just confuse defenders, making them kind of look silly with how they jump up in the air. And he’s still waiting for them to come up before going up with his own shot. The other thing that I wanted to talk about with regard to Max Struz, who you mentioned a little bit earlier, Struz was in a walking boot at tonight’s game, Chris.

Chris (07:44.706)

Mm.

Chris (08:06.882)

Yes he was.

Ethan Sands (08:07.741)

And I mean, obviously we know he’s going to be out for six weeks. has been mentioned that it’s probably a grade two ankle sprain. Is there been any updates from you that you’ve heard about Max and what that kind of diagnosis was?

Chris (08:25.588)

No, but a grade two ankle sprain is something that’s pretty significant and you have to be careful with it. You have to immobilize it as much as you possibly can. So it was not a surprise to me when I saw Max walk through the locker room in a walking boot. I figured that was going to be the case. I had heard that that was going to be the case. And the one thing that we do know when it comes to the calves, it’s not about now. It’s not about October. It’s not about November. It’s not about December.

It is about April, May and June. June if they’re lucky enough to get there. I doubt it because Boston still exists. nonetheless, there’s a bigger picture in play here for the Cavs. So they don’t have to rush Max back. He’s a competitor. He’s gonna wanna play. He hates missing games. He worked his butt off all off season to be ready for the start of this new season. So he’s not happy that he’s missing games right now. He’s not happy that he’s in a walking boot.

but we know that the calves express caution when it comes to various injuries, that that’s just how they always operate. So the six weeks is just when he’s going to be reevaluated. And then all of a sudden he’s got to try and get himself back in the game shape. He’s got to continue to progress in his recovery and stuff like that. So just don’t be surprised if this ends up being two months. And it’s not because

You know, max has a setback or something along those lines. It’s just because of the way one that the Cavs operate and two, the bigger picture that is in play and three, they’re a deep team. You know what I mean? Like there might be some points this year where all of a sudden that the bench is getting a little bit shorter and too many guys are missing at the same time. But, you know, they do feel as if they have 12 or 13.

NBA caliber playable players on this roster. So when you have the depth that they do, playable depth, and those guys that are filling in and getting opportunities are taking advantage of it and they’re playing well, then these players don’t feel like they have to rush back. Like last year, if you think about last year, Ethan, there were times that Donovan needed to take more time off and he’ll be the first person to admit this.

Chris (10:51.842)

He didn’t feel like he could. He felt like the team was in a bad place. He felt like they were losing games that they should have been winning. And he felt like even at less than 100%, he could still make a positive impact and the Cavs needed him out there on the floor. And because of that, he rushed himself Darius Garland. Same thing. So I just don’t think, you know, based on the way that they’ve played and based on this roster that they’ve constructed,

Unless things really, really go haywire, I don’t think Max is going to start feeling like, my God, I’ve got to get back because the season is slipping away.

Ethan Sands (11:33.575)

I want to add Dean Wade to that list of injured players that tried to come back too fast. When Dean Wade came back last year, he candidly said, yeah, there are a couple of terrors and stuff in there, like referring to his knee that he was then going to play three games in the playoffs on. Like it was insane. And then also thinking about how much Max Struce likes winning, right? This is a guy that

Chris (11:45.525)

Yeah.

Ethan Sands (11:59.757)

Even when he’s not out there, if the Cavs are getting W’s, he’s going to be a little bit happier at the end of the day. And Max Drews has been posting, obviously it’s just been two games, but the last two games he’s posted the win picture from the Cavs Instagram on his Instagram story. So he’s there, he’s interacting, all these different things. I wanted to turn it over a little bit to what the Cavs were able to do adjustment wise tonight because

Chris (12:07.566)

Mmm.

Ethan Sands (12:26.493)

Cade Cunningham had a great game when it came to scoring the basketball and getting a lot of points. But the Cavs also forced Cade Cunningham to commit nine turnovers and Cade was just 14 of 24 and two of six. So he was getting frustrated. He got a technical foul. He was arguing with the refs and it looked like I texted the subtexters that

The Cavs threw everything and the kitchen sink at Cade Cunningham when it came to defensive approaches because they were not only switching defenders, but they were also blitzing him as well. It was something that you saw Kenny Atkinson make a change to, to how they approached it from the beginning and then to when he started to struggle. Cause as we know, he had 30 points halfway through the third quarter and was held after that to just three points.

Chris (13:21.762)

Yeah, I mean, I think that’s what you have to do when it comes to great players and and Cade was the number one overall pick in 2021 for a reason. We talked about it last night on the podcast. I would not be surprised if he’s an All-Star this year. I think he’s going to put up those kinds of numbers and I think the Pistons are going to win enough games where it could end up being justifiable.

But that’s what you have to do as a coach. You have to throw different guys at him. You cannot allow these talented, high-level NBA players to see the same defenders all the time, to see the same defensive looks all the time. You’ve got to try and make them uncomfortable. You’ve got to try and take them out of their game as much as possible. At the same time, Ethan, I thought it was really, really impressive that the Cavs…

didn’t overreact of course they’re gonna change their coverage is of course they’re going to do different kinds of things because that’s what you have to do to these kinds of players but they didn’t overreact and they didn’t panic because kate put up thirty you know what i’m saying they stayed true to some of their other defensive principles and they made sure that a lot of their other guys were held in check and i like that about the cows because sometimes

Especially tonight, because sometimes these teams, you know, as we move forward through the regular season, they have a tendency to overreact or panic to a guy putting up big numbers. But the Cavs were basically at times just tipping their cap to Cade and saying, all right, if you’re going to make a bunch of these off-balance middies, then you have that. But we have a specific shot profile that we’re trying to take away on the defensive end of the floor. We have a specific shot profile.

that were willing to give up on the defensive end of the floor. And they just did not panic because Cade was having a great night. And I would expect, you know, as they move forward with this schedule, if Jordan Poole starts going bananas for the Wizards or Jalen Brunson starts going nuts for the Knicks in the next couple of games, I would expect them to make small adjustments. But I don’t think this is the kind of team.

Chris (15:37.422)

That is going to overreact to big scoring nights by some of these guys

Ethan Sands (15:42.205)

And that’s the difference of what we were talking about with this Cavs new offense. Right. The Cavs had four players that played tonight that that shot less than 50 % from the field. Right.

Chris (15:51.253)

Mm.

Ethan Sands (16:11.591)

Darius Garland was 5 of 11, right? So he’s really close. He’s on that cusp. Donovan Mitchell, 8 of 21. George Nyang, 1 of 3. And then Sam Merrill, 0 of 4. Obviously, Sam Merrill is still working through that wrist injury a little bit, it feels like, and he’s still getting hounded off ball screens and everything. He’s not taking easy shots. Chris, do you think that Sam Merrill might be pressing?

a little bit or what do you think is going on with him when it comes to his shot and getting back acclimated after being sidelined a little bit during the preseason?

Chris (16:49.038)

I actually joked with Sam in the locker room before the game tonight, and it’s because I watched his individual shooting workout following practice recently, and that is one of the most difficult individual workouts that I have ever seen from any player. Like that is not just catch and shoot stuff, go through the motions, go all around the arc and take like,

Five threes from the corner and then five from the wing and then five from the top of the key then five from the other wing. No, like he is taking off balance shots. He’s making his footwork very, very difficult on purpose. Like some of these shots he’s taking have his legs spread wide open. Some of them, his legs are close together because like he knows throughout the course of these games.

He’s gonna have to take some really, really difficult shots, right? The kind of player that he is, he’s not somebody who’s just going to create a whole bunch of space on his own. He’s not going to get wide open looks. Defenses are going to pay attention to him. Defenses are going to crowd him. They’re going to be physical with him. They’re going to trail him on these screens. They’re going to send a second defender at him at various points. So he’s going to have to take these

Difficult three-point shot that’s how he’s gonna have to live in today’s NBA Right cow corver had to live that same kind of way in the NBA where he’s just running full speed off sprints and stopping on a diamond rising up all these different awkward angles and trying to get his footwork together and Trying to get his shoulders set while jumping in the that’s just the life that Sam’s gonna live And I think it’s going to lead itself Ethan to a level of variance

And the fact that he was able to shoot as good of a percentage as he did last year, taking the difficult ones that he had to take that are just going to be part of his shot profile. It’s the same thing with Max Struce. You know, I think their numbers, their overall percentage is going to suffer because of the degree of difficulty on these shots. But the thing that an opponent is going to react to most is volume. So even if Sam is

Chris (19:12.11)

0 for 4 one night. Defenses aren’t all of sudden going to say, all right, we’re going to sag off of him. No, they’re going to guard him based on his reputation. They’re going to guard him based on the volume of three that he takes. So I just think given the difficulty of shot that he’s going to continue to get, there are going to be nights like we saw tonight. And when there are those kinds of nights, then you know what the Cavs do?

They continue to play him and hope that he can make an impact in different ways. And like I said, just his gravity, just his movement, just his spacing, those things can be beneficial still. And I like the fact that Kenny Atkinson didn’t completely go away from Sam Merrill because he missed four threes.

Ethan Sands (20:06.363)

And there’s other things about Sam Merrill’s game that have improved already that we’re noticing this season, right? There were times where he was playing tough defense against Kate Gunningham, right? There were times where he was setting screens on the offensive end, not getting screens, setting them. And they were strong on ball screens. And it was able to allow the ball handler to get through or pick and pop. Cause you know how dangerous that is to say, okay, you’re going to have two defenders.

no, you can’t slip, not even for a second because Sam Merrill gonna catch and shoot that. And the other thing talking about Sam and in that practice that we both witnessed, the workout regiment, right? Sam Merrill is one of the biggest head cases when it comes to competing with himself. Like it does not matter if it’s in an empty gym and doing these drills. It does not matter if the media is there. It doesn’t matter if it’s a full on practice. If he misses two in a row,

you probably go hear him say something explicit. Like, that’s just how this guy operates because he is a perfectionist as his craft. And that’s why anytime we talk to him after he might have a bad night or anything like that, he’s always like, I know I can do better, but I’m not going to stop shooting because that’s my MO. And that’s something that we need or the Cavs need from guys also like Dean Wade. And that’s starting to become the norm.

Right? Tonight we talked about him having seven three-point attempts. Through two games, Dean Wade is the second highest three-point attempt per game behind only Darius Garland and Donovan Mitchell. They have six and a half. Dean Wade has five. Dean Wade is averaging, it has a three-point percentage of 60 % and Donovan has 23.1 and Darius has 38, 30.8. So these are some guys.

that are probably two of the best scorers in the league, shooters as well. And Dean Wade is not only keeping up, but also being more efficient. Obviously Dean Wade is getting much easier looks because he’s on the floor with these two guys. But I think it’s very notable how much more, how much better Dean Wade has been about pulling the trigger. And he said it tonight in an interview. He said, I can’t take, I can’t pump fake anymore. And he basically was underlying that

Chris (22:13.397)

Mm-hmm.

Ethan Sands (22:29.383)

Kenny Atkinson is not going to let me play if I don’t take these shots. And I think that’s important not only for him, but also something that we talked about earlier on in the season, which was Kenny Atkinson speaks life into his guys, but he also gives like negative reinforcement that can also make them play better or do what they need to to help the team win.

Chris (22:53.742)

Well, everything at the beginning of the season, Ethan, as you know, is a small sample size theater. For Dean, though, like it’s important for him to understand that that’s the kind of volume that he has to be at. So it is great for him and it’s great for the Cavs that he took seven tonight. I was talking to Donovan Mitchell in the locker room about this afterward, and he said, that’s a win for us. Dean took seven. Doesn’t matter as much that he made five.

Great that he made five, want him to make five. He should be happy about that. But he took seven and that’s a win. And he needs to continue to take that kind of volume because those shot opportunities are going to be there. He’s playing alongside Darius Garland, Donovan Mitchell, Jared Allen and Evan Mobley. Right? Who’s the defense going to pay attention to? It’s not Dean Wade. So those shots are going to be there. He has talked about it over and over and over again. My job is easy.

I just have to space the floor and I just have to be in the right spots and be ready to shoot when the ball comes my way and the ball is going to come my way because they’re focused on everybody else and they should be. Because those guys continue to draw the attention. Those guys are higher up on the scouting report. So yeah, those opportunities are going to be there for Dean and he’s got to take those and he’s got to take those.

with confidence tonight against Detroit. He took them all with confidence. There wasn’t hesitation. wasn’t pump faking against Toronto. He took them without hesitation. He took them confidently, but it just can’t be a two game thing, right? It can’t just be a five game thing. It can’t just be a 10 game thing that needs to be part of who he is as a player. If he’s going to be in this starting line.

Ethan Sands (24:49.767)

So Dean hit one of his threes in front of the Detroit Pistons bench and Luke Walton, a former coach of the Cavs, said something to the likes of, heck no. And Dean turned around after draining the three pointer, did his little three point celebration, but it was more of a point than it was a three point hand signal. Just to let him know, he said,

I’m not the same person that you were coaching just a year ago. I’m going to be different this year. And Chris, to wrap this podcast up, I know you talked about going to the Washington DC to get to play against the Wizards and the Cavs going over there to see how they’re going to fare in their third game of the season. But you mentioned it, Jordan Poole, Kyle Kuzma, and we’ve talked about it before. These are games that the Cavs should win. What is the expectation for you?

After multiple games where they won by over 10 points and going into a game that they should win again by that amount or more

Chris (25:58.914)

Yeah, it’s just about taking care of business for this team. It’s about continuing to get better, continue to get an understanding of this system at both ends of the floor, continuing to get more and more comfortable with one another. But it’s also about taking care of business when the schedule makers give you an opportunity to get off to a good, fast start. And you know that the schedule is going to turn at some point and it’s going to get more difficult at some point.

You’ve got to capitalize on these ones. And if you’re a team like the Cavs and you consider yourself a championship contender, you can’t afford to relax. You can’t afford to take wins for granted. Because we’ve talked about this too, Ethan, when it comes to this Eastern Conference, it is loaded and it is going to be a dogfight just to get one of the top six seeds. So banking as many wins as you can.

against the teams that you are clearly better than, and especially playing on the second game of a back-to-back, right, being able to take care of your business early, have the right focus, have the right mentality, that will allow the Cavs to get some in-game rest, either late in the third quarter or in the fourth quarter, so that they can be a little bit better physically and mentally.

for the challenge which is coming up this week and we know what those are. New York, Los Angeles, you know, not the same caliber. We might be sitting here saying, you know, I don’t know how good the Lakers are. I don’t know how good the Knicks are going to be with Carl Anthony Towns, but they ain’t Toronto and they ain’t Detroit, right? The caliber of opponent for the Cavs is going to be different. So if they can…

Take care of business early against the wizards and play with the right mentality and the right focus in the right attention to detail. They can be in better shape going into that monday game against new york and then just the week in general new york los angeles orlando then milwaukee. They’ve got to be.

Chris (28:17.142)

It’s a tough schedule at the beginning from a travel standpoint and how condensed the games are. know, fourth quarter against Washington, potentially if the game’s out of reach, would give them an opportunity to kind of recalibrate the way that they probably need to at this point.

Ethan Sands (28:34.609)

And these rebuilding teams can sneak wins on some of these top tier teams, right? We’ve already seen it. We’ve already seen it around the league. Yep. Yep. Just, just today, Friday, the Raptors beat the 76ers who don’t have Paul Jordan, Joel Embiid. Sure. And then you also look at the Chicago Bulls who beat the Bucks. So especially thinking about when the Cavs have the opportunity to take advantage of other teams losing.

Chris (28:40.067)

sure, it’s the NBA.

Ethan Sands (29:03.279)

in the Eastern Conference that they know that they’re going to be able to be competing with down the line. It’s important to get off to a good start and like Chris mentioned, get rest when you can, especially against some of these teams that shouldn’t be in the conversation. But the Pistons look better already, right? Veterans, they got JB Bickerstav at the helm. They are a defensive minded team and it was a good win against a team that didn’t want to make it easy on them to go away. But

The Cavs will have to handle business again as they travel to DC to play the Wizards on Saturday. But with that being said, that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. But remember to become a Cavs insider and interact with Chris, me, and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. Sign up for a 14-day free trial or visit Cleveland.com backslash Cavs and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop.

It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who sign up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris, and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast, it’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’all be safe. We out.