What are three focal points for the Cavs after media day? Wine and Gold Talk podcast

Takeaways:

• Donovan Mitchell’s commitment brings stability to the team.
• Kenny Atkinson is seen as a problem solver for the Cavs.
• The team aims to modernize their offensive strategies, and the players are eager to adapt to Atkinson’s system.
• The upcoming season holds many uncertainties for the Cavs.

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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.

Ethan Sands

What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. Joining me once again, Chris Fidor, Jimmy Watkins. Like I said last time, the three-headed goat has returned. And Chris and Jimmy, we’re coming to them all afterwards with the Media Day coverage.

Chris has already hit y’all with two articles, Donovan Mitchell, Jared Allen. We got more coming for you, coming to you, but we do wanna get into the big things that we took away from Media Day. Obviously it was my first Media Day covering any sport. It was huge. It was so much fun. And it was a little hectic because you had multiple people talking at the same time, trying to figure out who to talk to, what the immortal…

most important things were. That’s why I was glad I had my guys with me, kind of split it up, spread out the work, be able to get multiple different perspectives on different things. Chris, Jimmy, what are your thoughts on media day today?

Chris (01:15.412)

Jimmy, want to start or you want me to start?

Ethan Sands (01:17.125)

Yeah.

Jimmy Watkins (01:19.606)

I’ll start by saying Chris is in mid-season form, He’s already got, I mean, not only, he has two stories up already, but the quickness with which Chris got this Jared Allen, let’s rehash Jared Allen’s rib injury story up there and the detail that’s in there. mean, I don’t know, I think sometimes I’m just a bad manager of my time. In fact, I know I’m a bad manager of my time, but I was just, it’s called media day for a reason. I was in awe of watching this man cook.

Chris (01:49.312)

Well, one, I appreciate that. My big takeaway is I feel bad for Caris LaVert. Poor Caris LaVert. know, Donovan Mitchell was the story coming into today’s media day. I think everybody understands that. was the first time that he talked to us specifically about his decision to resign with the Cavs, about how his calf and his knee, how those things are feeling, about the change in coaching staff, about Johnny Bryant coming in as an assistant.

Like all the different things that you care about Donovan Mitchell talking about. It was his first opportunity with us to do that. And poor Karis LaVert is talking 10 feet away from him at the same time that Donovan was answering all those questions. you know, Karis is a key member of this team. He’s the sixth man of this team. And he just had to, you know, hear the booming voice of Donovan right next to him.

talking about his contract situation and whatnot. Karras doesn’t care. Obviously, Karras doesn’t care. He knows how media day goes. He’s been a part of this a number of times, but all I was thinking to myself was, man, I feel bad for him because he didn’t have the biggest crowd over there and because like he was probably, it was probably difficult to concentrate and focus and say the right things that he probably wanted to say coherently when you had the booming voice of Donovan Mitchell right next to him.

Ethan Sands (03:14.266)

Well, I’ll be first person perspective, because I was one of the five, six people over there talking to Karras LaVert. And I’m going back listening to all the audio that I have from today’s media day, and I can barely hear Karras. And I’m five feet from him. And we talk about the booming voice. Donovan Mitchell was the only person today that adequately used the microphone that was placed in front of him, right? He’s the only person that was like,

screaming and everybody else in the entire arena can hear him.

Jimmy Watkins (03:48.234)

It’s really funny that you say that because that’s how I felt about Karis. I’m standing like two feet away from Donovan and like really trying to lock in on what Donovan’s saying because you know this is our quarterback right? This is the guy who everything this guy says matters and I got Karis LaVerde talking about fashion in my other ear and I’m like what? I’m distracted. I don’t know what’s going on.

Ethan Sands (04:11.288)

Not my question. Not my question, by the way. Indeed.

Chris (04:11.414)

Karras loves talking about fashion though, I’ll tell you that much. Obviously Karras loves talking about basketball, but he loves talking about art and fashion as well. So if you get him going on that, he probably was really, really engaged and excited about it.

Ethan Sands (04:27.27)

He wasn’t too engaged because the question which was asked to a couple of different guys was who is the best dressed on the team and then who needs some help. like you can’t, well, one player kind of threw somebody else under the bus, but everybody else was like, I’ll tell you who the best are, but I’m not gonna tell you who I think needs some help is. I mean, the top guys are like Darius, Karras.

Isaac like that’s really what it was. But it was definitely interesting little setup that the Cavs had for us today. It was good to get to talk to all the different guys that were available and just being around because as we’re talking about these guys were just talking to the medium at the same time. There also are other players who were not talking that are getting their pictures taken while the Cavs PR Cavs social media team all of them do their jobs.

to a very high level I might add. And it is just a very overwhelming experience. My eyes were tired by the end of the media day. we want to…

Chris (05:36.758)

Yeah, you really do have to drive back from media day and kind of give yourself a moment to decompress and figure out what direction you want to go in and figure out what it was that you just listened to from each individual person.

Jimmy Watkins (05:51.388)

You kind of have to, I what we’re about to do here, right, is just pick stuff that stands out, right? Because like, who has the time? Who has the time to transcribe and go through all those transcriptions in one day? It’s like, I was joking with people before, like the little media brunch in or whatever. And we were, I think we were talking about the Knicks trade and I was like, I kind of feel like cat in the playoffs. I feel overwhelmed right now. I might just go foul somebody.

Chris (05:55.638)

Yeah.

Ethan Sands (06:16.932)

Well, speak. I mean, sometimes you have to, right? I walked home from media day and I was like, I’m glad I’m not in a car right now because I could not focus on everything else around me. I’m just going to go down the street. But as Jimmy mentioned and prefaced with, we want to talk about the most important things or the biggest takeaways that we got. And obviously, we do want to start with Donovan because that’s the biggest storyline.

Chris (06:17.068)

Just take yourself out of the mix.

Ethan Sands (06:44.932)

Right. And Chris and Jimmy, I know you guys were both over there for that conversation. He talked about being at home, being a part of the community, right. And feeling safe in this environment. Right. We also know that he went to Chris’s alma mater the other day to just hang out with some students, some kids and play some dodge ball and give back. It just really feels like as much as the national media or whoever you want to say, said that Donovan Mitchell wasn’t coming back.

This is somebody that really enjoys being here and Chris, a question that I heard you ask a couple of times to various guys was how different it is this season that you don’t have to ask the question or answer the question about Donovan and where he’s going to be at for the next couple of years. What is you kind of gather from that situation and the content that you got from other players?

Chris (07:40.438)

To me guys, and I’d love to get your thoughts on this. I think coming into this season for the Cavs, looking at it honestly, I think there are three major storylines to follow. Three of them. I mean, there are more than that, obviously. There are like sub storylines, but I think the major ones are Kenny Atkinson as coach and how much of a difference he can make. Because if you think about everything that the Cavs have done,

in terms of their activity this off season. And then you think about everything that has been said over the last week, week and a half. They are basically saying, JB didn’t get enough out of this roster. Let’s see if somebody else can get more out of this roster. They’re running it back in a league of parody, in a league of change, 13 of 14 players from the full-time roster coming back. That’s unheard of.

Especially when you talk about what New York has done, what Philly has done. You know, they didn’t win the championship last year. The Cavs didn’t win the championship last year. If you win the championship, you look at your roster and you’re like, Hey, this is pretty good. This can work. We’ve seen it work. But 13 and 14 players from last year’s team, they’re coming back. So that’s one storyline for us to follow, I think is just like, how do things look different with Kenny Atkinson?

What does the offense look like? What does the defense look like? How do the players respond to him? What level of interaction does he have with Donovan Mitchell in timeouts and during stoppages? What kind of trust did the players have in Kenny Atkinson and vice versa? That’s one major storyline. The other one to me is just the East, the East overall. We talked about Philadelphia getting better, New York getting better, Indiana’s not going anywhere, Orlando got better.

We think Miami is going to have a resurgence because duh, it’s Miami. They’re the vampires. They’re going to find a way, right? At least that’s what the belief is. Is Milwaukee going to be better than they were because it’s the second year of Dame and Giannis and then Boston is Boston and everybody understands that. But I was talking to somebody about this. It might take 50 guys. It might take 50 wins to get one of the locked in six playoff spots in the Eastern conference because of how talented it is at the top. It’s up 47 last year.

Chris (10:07.232)

by the way, I don’t think saying it’s going to take three more is that much of a stretch. And the other storyline, and I do think this is real, the Donovan Mitchell situation, whether people wanted to admit it or not, it drove the decision making of this franchise and it loomed over everything that they did. It loomed over the J.B. Bickerstaff decision this off season, right? It loomed over trades in the past. It loomed over whether they were going to keep

Evan Mobley and Jared Allen together, whether they were going to keep Darius and Donovan together. It loomed over the pressure and the expectations of this team. It created at times, you know, tension within the organization when they were losing streaks and stuff like that, because these guys are all competitors and because they’re chasing a championship, because, you know, regular season success just doesn’t do it when you have a player like Donovan Mitchell and you’re trying to show him.

that this is where he needs to be. This is the team that he should sign up to be a part of, you all that kind of stuff, whether anybody wanted to admit it or not. When you had Donovan Mitchell going into this situation this summer with his contract situation, it loomed over everything. And I do think there is a collective exhale from this organization, not a situation where they’re just going to rest on their laurels, but I think there’s a productive collective exhale of

Donovan is signed. Donovan’s locked in long-term and we don’t have to worry about this anymore.

Jimmy Watkins (11:42.24)

So there’s a clear LeBron parallel here and there has been from the start, right? But it’s a little different. like with Donovan LeBron, obviously the contract hovers over everything. And until you have this guy under contract, every decision you make is not just that decision, right? It’s an if then. It’s if Donovan does this, then we do this. If Donovan does that, then we do that. And to Chris’s point, it’s not like LeBron.

The LeBron thing, because he’s so singular a force, was to another degree, like even through, wasn’t in those locker rooms, but I can imagine, you know, if LeBron’s disappointed in you, it just feels a little bit different. And by the way, he’s not so shy. He wasn’t so shy. You’re gone, right, you’re on the trade block, yeah. With Donovan, it’s more like…

Chris (12:28.918)

If LeBron’s disappointed in you, you’re out! Go on. See ya, neon waiters. See ya, David Blatt.

Jimmy Watkins (12:39.606)

See Dwayne Wade, my best friend? Like crazy. Donovan is more just like the, it’s the implication, right? It’s, we all know what happens if this thing, or we all worry about this thing happening if it doesn’t work out. And now it has worked out. Donovan’s like the tide that lifts all boats, right? I wrote this when he signed. It’s like, I don’t know.

Chris (12:44.126)

Yeah

Jimmy Watkins (13:05.352)

if the Cavs are gonna be able to figure out the Evan Mobley-Jared Allen pairing on offense. I don’t know if there’s a backcourt comprised of two guards shorter than 6′2″, or your two offensive engines for that matter, shorter than 6′2″, are good enough to win a championship. But Donovan Mitchell just told me that he thinks that, so I’m feeling pretty good about it, right? And to your point about, again, it infecting everything, infecting.

is the wrong word, but it has an impact on everything that the franchise does. like, I imagine in J.B. Bickerstaff’s some of these changes that Kenny Atkinson might make, he might’ve wanted to make them too or thought about making them too, but this guy, he’s operating on a year to year basis last year. So what do athletes tell us all the time? You know, when adversity hits, you fall back on your training.

JB did like he adversely hit him in a major way with that Knicks playoff loss. He knew everything that was at stake, including the future of Donva Mitchell on that franchise. So JB’s like, man, I’m going to do what I know how to do. I’m riding out in the horse that I came in on. to that, from that perspective, I don’t blame him for doing that. I also see the Cavs perspective on, yeah, we need to shake this up a little bit. And clearly the players are telling us in not so uncertain terms that we believe that there is

more meat on the bone here. But yeah, man, when Donovan gives you that green light, it’s like, okay, now we have the patience, we have the window to give Evan Mobley the room that he needs to grow. It doesn’t have to happen, doesn’t feel like it has to happen right now. Darius Garland has a weird year because of injuries and personal matters. It doesn’t have to set us back five years. We have time.

We have grace. We’ve been given grace to figure stuff out here.

Chris (15:08.204)

Mm-hmm.

Last year in a way was a full year sales pitch to Donovan and it’s one that started earlier than last year, but it was their last real sales pitch going into the summer for Donovan. Basketball wise, like city wise, off the court. Donovan even talked about the off the court reasons why he likes it here. And that matters when you talk about any kind of long-term decision that any player is going to make.

But Donovan’s somebody who is chasing championships. Donovan’s somebody who wants to be the face of the NBA when LeBron and KD and Steph move on. Donovan wants to go to the conference finals and the NBA finals. He knows that’s how he’s going to get the kind of recognition that he believes that he deserves. So it was a sales pitch from Darius Garland to show him, like I can be your running mate in the future, Evan Mobley. Like I can be a part of a core that wins a championship.

in the next couple of years, like JB Bickerstaff, I can be the coach that takes this organization to the next level. And I just feel like it was an unspoken thing and I don’t think a lot of players wanted to touch it, but I think it was a real thing, a level of pressure that existed in that locker room that now has been organically lifted.

Ethan Sands (16:32.634)

And I think that’s the next part we got to touch on, right? Because today, of all days, you mentioned Chris that they didn’t really want to touch it. Well, inadvertently, a lot of these players touched it. Most of them made implications saying that, okay, well, Kenny Atkinson is going to do this differently on offense. They’re going to put me into more sets. There’s going to be more actions. I’m going to be moving more. I’m going to be coming off more screens.

What did Max Struz say last year about when Evan Mobley and Darius Garland were injured and they needed to change their offense? Hey, let’s shoot more threes. Hmm. Okay. So the team went from shooting what? 23 threes a game to 31 to 32 threes a game and their offense changed. Now the Cavs then realized that this was an offense that they can maintain with the roster that they have.

back to what all the other players were saying today, what was the main thing that I took away was two things that everybody on this team worked on. They were in the weight room, in the gym, and they were shooting threes. That’s the main thing for me. So Chris, I wanted to get into what you heard from some of the players that gave indication that Kenny Atkinson’s change in pace, offense, those kinds of things are going to help what J.U. Biggers have.

could not get out of this place, these players.

Chris (18:04.874)

Yeah, think the way that George Nhi Anh said it was the most eloquent and I believe it was George who said it. Hold on, Elliot wants to say hi to everybody. He wants to be on his podcast here. What do want to say to the people? Hi!

Jimmy Watkins (18:23.99)

What up, Elliot? Didn’t see this guy on the media day docket, but we’re glad he’s here. Surprise guest.

Chris (18:28.744)

No, you didn’t get your credential. You say, hi, name Elliott. Hi, name Elliott. Can you say basketball? Basketball.

Jimmy Watkins (18:41.728)

More three pointers, Elliot. More three pointers.

Ethan Sands (18:44.24)

This is the best interview of the day.

Chris (18:44.47)

This is your podcast debut. Do you feel good about it? Yeah. I think the way that George said it was really, really smart because I think JB, like I think he wanted to do modern things. I do. He was frantically waving these dudes to push the pace. Like, is it Mike Sarva who is the third base coach for the Guardians? Like JB was doing that.

Ethan Sands (18:50.672)

you

Chris (19:13.44)

just like waving dudes ahead. But, but I think like the way that the guys were looking at it was like, okay, we’re going to push the pace to do what? Like, what are we going into after we run up the floor? Am I just running to the corner to run high pick and roll stuff for Darius fast? You know what I mean? Like what, are we going to get into? What’s the benefit of pushing the pace? And he wanted to shoot more threes and stuff like that. And he wanted to try.

to modernize the offense. I don’t think he knew how, honestly. Like I don’t think he had the answers on how to do that. I just think he had the ideas in his mind that it would be good for the calves to do those things. And George Niang earlier today, he was calling Kenny Atkinson a problem solver. He was calling Kenny Atkinson somebody who was forward thinking that, that he identifies what’s going wrong.

And he can fix it in a way that JB Bickerstaff couldn’t. Or he can see a problem ahead of time before it’s too late. And if there’s one thing that I think you could criticize JB for is the in-game adjustments, they just didn’t come quick enough, right? Game to game, sometimes you made those adjustments, but in the game, as it was going on, can you find the problem and can you come up with a solution?

So for George to just say based on people that he’s talked to and based on the things that he knows about Kenny and the things that he’s seen from Kenny, he’s a problem solver. think that’s a big deal for the Cavs because I do think when they got into a seven game series against whoever it was, I think they needed a problem solver, a quicker problem solver. So I thought that was interesting. And then Max Struse.

love Max because Max just doesn’t hold back. He comes from the Miami culture and he just doesn’t give a bleep. I remember talking to him actually after the first game. It was the first home game and you know, it’s one of 82, right? That’s how most people look at it. And nobody else was talking to Max. So, and he looked pissed, like visibly angry. So I walked up to him and I said,

Chris (21:32.66)

Max, you know, what are your feelings on this game or whatever? Like, what do you think went wrong for you guys? And he looked at me with a straight face and he says, I like playing basketball the right way. And I was like, whoa, this is the first game of the year and you’re already doing that? So like, he’s just somebody who knows what, what championship looks like.

who knows what it’s supposed to look like and wants to play the right way and he doesn’t hold back with his comments. And today he basically said that, you know, he wasn’t used the right way within this offense. And by the Cavs using him a certain kind of way, it didn’t maximize max and it didn’t maximize what they could do offensively. And he believes that there’s going to be more movement created offensively. He believes that

There’s going to be more gravity created. He believes that he’s going to get more opportunities to touch the ball and run triggers off of that and whatnot, as opposed to just being like a catch and shoot guy or a stand still guy. So I do think that they’re going to be based on everything that we know about Kenny, everything that we’ve heard from people who know Kenny well and everything that the players said today. If things, if things go right.

and Kenny gets his way, this offense will have more modern concepts, more diversity, and more creativity. And I think that can be a good thing.

Ethan Sands (23:08.207)

And speaking of a guy that didn’t want to talk about being in a former place, Max didn’t want to talk about being in Miami anymore. Max wanted to talk about being in Cleveland. And I think that’s another time where I don’t think I wasn’t there the entire time Max was talking, but I didn’t hear anybody ask him about Miami. I feel like that was relieving for him as well. But also understanding that at the end of the playoffs series against Boston,

Chris (23:17.258)

No. Yeah.

Ethan Sands (23:33.946)

people were asking about his three point percentage and his field goal percentage and how he didn’t have the best shooting time. And he was like, well, I didn’t get the opportunity to shoot as much as I would have liked to. I didn’t get to do the volume that I’m used to when we’re in these kinds of situations. Because Chris, we talked about it last year, right? There were opportunities and times in the first quarter for Max to get hot. And then throughout the remainder of the game, it felt like he would kind of became a ghost.

And now it feels like there’s going to be more consistency when it comes to Kenny Atkinson system and being able to run balls, greens and all those different things so that multiple different opportunities are created throughout the entire game rather than just when it’s getting started.

Chris (24:19.276)

also believe that the players felt, in a lot of ways, the way that the fans did at various points last year, that everything offensively, and the way the media members felt as well watching it, everything offensively felt like a chore. It felt like the Cavs had to work so hard to get quality offense. And I think what Max was saying today, what George was saying today, even if they didn’t come out and use this exact quote,

I think they’d want a coach that’s going to make things easier for them offensively. And I don’t think they believed that JB was making things easier enough for Max, easy enough for George, easy enough for Donovan and Darius. And one thing that I’m going to dig into as training camp goes on and the Cavs have different ways to measure this and other teams have different ways to measure this. From my recollection and Max kind of talked about this earlier today, Max took some of the most

Difficult threes of any player in the NBA They were heavily contested. They were on the move. They were falling away They were at the end of the shot clock when things were just like breaking down And I think part of the reason why he believes and he might be wrong on this but part of the reason why he believes his shooting percentages suffered is Because the quality of look that he got his first year in Cleveland

was drastically different than the quality of look that he got in Maya.

Jimmy Watkins (25:55.478)

So there’s a lot of meat on this bone.

for Max, it’s interesting because if you look at, I just did a Max Shoes basketball reference, curse research. If you look at two things, number one, his shooting percentage last year, 35 % during the regular season is a touch below his career average, but his career average is weighted heavily by 141 % season in Miami. Other than that, he’s kind of shot the way he had shot for most of his career. And he was kind of shooting the amount of threes that he was shooting.

Chris (26:05.376)

Hmm.

Chris (26:16.812)

It’s right about there.

Chris (26:22.86)

you

Jimmy Watkins (26:27.542)

Even in the playoffs, he shot 6.8 during the regular season, six in the playoffs, he averages somewhere between there. But I think the difference between what a J.B. offense can do for you, the quality of looks, sure, but also I think rhythm, rhythm is so precious to shooters. even if you touch the ball for a second, even if you feel like you’re doing something with purpose besides sitting in the corner and waiting, hey, is Darius or Donovan gonna pass me the ball?

Chris (26:42.177)

Mm-hmm.

Chris (26:54.068)

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (26:56.584)

that can do something for you. It’s like staying engaged, staying focused, believing that you might get the ball. know, like at any moment you could get the ball because you’re always in motion. You’re always being weaponized. I think that can play a huge role. That speaks to what Max is saying. That speaks to what George is saying. We said it after the press conference. Listen to what they say about the new coach. They’ll tell you what they didn’t like about the old one. And they were doing a whole bunch of that today.

Chris (27:21.516)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (27:25.622)

And to Chris’s point about adjustments with Kenny, let George was, I’m trying to remember, I followed up on when you said George was saying that Kenny is a problem solver. followed up on, I think George was talking about how unique Kenny’s approach was to coaching. And I said, different how? And George was basically saying like, well, a lot of coaches, wonder who he could be talking about here. A lot of coaches will just point to the past and say, this is what we did here with, I think he used the 86 calves.

Chris (27:41.248)

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (27:55.444)

as an example, point back to that and say, well, that’s what we need to do. Cause this is what worked for me in the past. Kenny will take the problem and say, well, in the app, like I, I just know so much basketball in the abstract. Here’s what I think we should do. Like here’s a thing I’ve seen before, not that I’ve done this before. It’s not so rigid. You know what I mean? It’s like I have, here’s a thing we’re doing. man. I, I could, I can picture this new action that, maybe that would unlock a few things for us. And that’s it’s, it’s.

I think that gets into his like assistantship, apprenticeship, assistantship that he’s done over the last couple years with Tai Liu and Steve Kurtz. Not just, you know, those are two high level playoff chess masters. We’ve seen Kenny build a foundation and build a culture and do it well in Brooklyn. never, we never really, besides one playoff series, got to see what it looks like when he’s moving the pieces in a highly competitive series, you know? But we know what Steve Kerr looks like when he’s doing, when it’s time to do that. We know what Tai Liu

Chris (28:31.286)

I think it’s pretty interesting.

Jimmy Watkins (28:54.474)

looks like when it’s time to do that. Kenny obviously learned a lot from them. And I think particularly with the way the Warriors play, so much off ball movement, so much beautiful game, so much what Max Deuce would call the right way to play. That’s gotta be part of what’s making these guys so excited.

Chris (29:12.78)

I also don’t think it’s 100 % fair. think it’s JB Bickerstaff was very forward thinking a couple of years ago when he decided to do the three big lineup when nobody else in the NBA thought it was going to work. And now other teams are trying to model that same thing. So I do think that JB showed himself to be adaptable and forward thinking when it came to those kinds of things. But I think it’s a lot of the in-game stuff. There just wasn’t the level of belief in JB as an X, as an O’s.

guy and as as a tactician and and look if you’re talking about Max and you’re talking about George Nhiang and you’re talking about You know Donovan Mitchell even think about the coaches that those guys played for you know It was always going to be hard for JB to stack up to Eric’s bolstra It was always going to be hard for JB to stack up to Quinn Snyder who Donovan just raves about still to this day It was always going to be hard

for him to be viewed by those guys that had been elsewhere the way that if it was a brand new team, if it was a rebuilding team that didn’t know other coaching, that didn’t experience something different, that hadn’t tasted success elsewhere, all those factors play into it.

Ethan Sands (30:33.744)

mean, there’s also the aspect that, obviously, you talk about the three overarching point of views and things that are kind of hanging over this season, right? One of the…

Chris (30:44.96)

Yeah, you guys agree with those, by the way? Do you have other ones that stand out to you?

Ethan Sands (30:48.442)

think the… Evan Mobley is the one that I think… Right, but like, is that a sub one? Or you think that’s another one?

Chris (30:52.384)

Well.

Chris (30:57.814)

Well, I think it’s a sub one under the umbrella of Kenny Atkinson because a big part of why Kenny Atkinson was brought here was his player development chops and background and trying to take Evan to the next level and get more out of Darius and Donovan together and get Darius to bounce back from a disastrous year last year. So I do think that’s under the umbrella of Kenny coming in to like get more out of those individual guys.

Jimmy Watkins (31:24.307)

I would throw.

I would throw Darius into that mix as well, independent of Kenny. Obviously, we want to see more DHOs, we want to see more pin downs, we want to see better shots for Darius. I just think that Darius is in a really unique spot in his career. Donovan talked about that a little bit today where his reputation has taken a massive hit across the league. And through

I mean, some fault of his own, of course. We can’t write everything off to the injury, like, he’s basically spent every moment since he ran into Kristaps Porzingis in that Celtics game chasing his former self. And now it’s really interesting to me, and I guess everything falls under the coach umbrella to some extent. It’s really interesting to me that we’re asking Darius Garland, can you be a different kind of really good player now when…

Chris (32:10.432)

Thank you.

Jimmy Watkins (32:24.04)

in his head, he’s probably still thinking, well, I still want to show everyone that I can be the guy that I was before I ran into Kristaps Borsingis. I think that’s a really interesting human conflict.

Chris (32:36.512)

Yeah. And I think that’s a really fascinating point that you bring up. And I think the other layer to that guys is that there’s a hierarchy within every organization in the NBA, right? It’s the same thing with the Cavs. It’s Donovan Mitchell’s team. It’s Donovan Mitchell’s offense. And then it’s Evan Mobley.

And then it’s Darius Garland, Jared Allen. So like, if there’s going to be changes made with the roster, if this organization finally gets a belief that to take the next step, to get where we want to go, to compete for championships, we need to change the roster, then Darius would be one that they look at moving. Right?

Jarrett would be one that they look at moving and then it becomes a question of what kind of value do you get in return? But like in some ways Darius has to prove to this organization and he’s got to prove to Donovan and his teammates that he can be a guy that can be the point guard of a championship team. And I think right now, if we’re being honest, there are legitimate questions about whether he can be the point guard of a championship team.

Jimmy Watkins (33:56.956)

The other thing is like, it’s not just, he’s fighting for his, the status that we thought he was going to ascend to in the league. Like even if he ends up.

Chris (34:06.944)

The status that he believed he was on a trajectory to reach. Yeah.

Jimmy Watkins (34:11.208)

Yeah, yeah. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Donovan was calling him Mr. Cavalier and Mr. Cleveland. I think that there is a concerted effort around that organization right now to build up Darius, to try and to reinsert the confidence that he lost over the course. He lost some confidence over the course of last season. I know these guys will tell you that every shot I take is going in every time. I always believe that. That is not true. That is not how confidence works.

is more fickle and fluid than that. And Darius was in a really, really lost place last year. And even if he ends up going to another team, like he’s probably at the point where I know he’s at the point where other teams are looking at him like, is that the guy that we want to give over, fork over a bunch of picks for? Is this the guy that we think we could pair with another one of our star? Like he’s in a really unique, weird place in his career right now. And by the way, to Chris’s point,

Chris (34:58.614)

Hmm hmm

Jimmy Watkins (35:10.366)

Yes, it’s Donovan up here, then it’s Evan Mobley and Jared Allen, Darius Garland, probably on similar tiers. If you had to put one over the other, it’s probably Darius Garland. But Jared Allen is just like looking around, I’m on the poster? Cool. That’s awesome. Guy’s just happy to be here. I’m not saying Darius Garland isn’t that way. I’m saying that it’s less clear how he feels about where he stands in the organization.

Chris (35:22.762)

Yes.

Ethan Sands (35:37.19)

I think that’s a really great point. And I also think Kenny Atkinson, because we’re picking this into one of the subcategories right now, maybe creating a fourth category if we deem it as much going into later into the season. But I think Keris LaVert mentioned it. He said that Kenny Atkinson literally oozes confidence into his players, right? We don’t understand the behind the scenes from a lot of what J.U. Baker’s staff was had going on with the guys.

Chris (35:50.154)

Yeah.

Ethan Sands (36:06.596)

We knew he had their back when it came to like injuries and all those things and trying to be close to the vest. But it feels like these players already understand that Kenny Atkinson is a guy that will have your back, say that you are able to do this. He said when J.A. was in Brooklyn, that he could have his jersey hanging in the rafters. That’s next level confidence boosting, right?

Chris (36:30.685)

Mm-hmm.

Ethan Sands (36:31.438)

And that is being brought to not only the guys that already play with him, Caris Levert, Jared Allen, but also guys like Darius Garland, guys like Donovan Mitchell, Donovan needing it less so than anybody else. But Darius especially trying to get back to that confidence level. because like Jimmy said, you can talk it all you want, but until you show it, it doesn’t really matter or correlate to what you might be saying.

Chris (36:59.05)

Yeah, this is a hard thing because I think it depends.

Chris (37:04.47)

I think it depends on the status of the player that you’re talking about. And maybe it shouldn’t be this way. But I think if you would ask, you know, George Nguyen, Sam Merrill, Isaac Ducour, some of those other guys, did JB do enough to build you up? I don’t know that they would say yes. Like there were times in the locker room last year that there were passive aggressive joking comments.

that were also partially serious where I would be having a conversation with Sam Merrill or I would be having a conversation with George Nhiang and somebody from a distance would shout, better not miss shots, not gonna play, better make your shots, otherwise you’re gonna get pulled out of the lineup. You know what I mean? Like I just think there were certain guys in this rotation that JB was always going to have a quicker hook with. And I think…

That’s what he thought was best for the team. At some point, a guy has to produce for you to put your faith in him and for you to continue to call that number. But I also can understand if a player was looking at it saying, boy, like that’s not a way to build me up. Boy, that’s not a way for me to play. I’m playing tight instead of loose and free. And know what I mean? So I think for Sam Merrill.

Like there’s probably going to be a level of freedom that he plays with more so this year than in the past where he doesn’t feel like the only thing that he can do from a positive is make shots. And if he doesn’t make those shots, he’s going to get yanked or same thing, you know, with George and Yang or whatever the case may be. So I do think that it’ll be interesting to see how guys react to Kenny in situations.

where he starts making some tougher decisions. When it comes to the lineup, when it comes to the rotation, when it comes to the combinations, those are always going to be delicate for a coach because you’ve got pride involved, you’ve got egos involved, you’ve got players who believe they should be getting more playing time, you’ve got players believing they should be getting more shots, you have players believing they should be more involved offensively and stuff like that. Kenny said that he’s going to play 10, maybe 11.

Chris (39:28.64)

But when he starts making those delicate roster related decisions, when it starts to get a little bit tighter with the rotation and minute allocation and stuff like that, I’m going to be really, really interested to see how some of these guys respond. Because it’s going to happen. It’s always going to happen.

Jimmy Watkins (39:49.248)

Boo yah. It’s great. This is media day. This is what this is for, right? This is the day you say all the right things. Everyone’s a championship contender. I think we might catch some people off guard this year. People are sleeping on us. I think continuity is the life in the Cavs case. Look around, look at all these teams building super teams. Well, we ran it back and we think that’s the right way. You don’t have another choice. This is the team that you were gonna have. It was this or?

Chris (39:54.431)

Yeah.

Jimmy Watkins (40:15.99)

trade Darius Garland for like Brandon Ingham or something. Like, yeah, I think you were going to run it back. That’s really what you were going to do. So yeah, let’s see it. It sounds all, it all sounds so great. Let’s celebrate death. Let’s, yay Kenny. Yay Kenny has come to save us. This is what I’m writing for the website tomorrow morning. But like, I’ll flip it on Kenny. Like, it’s cool. Like yes, play Sam Merrill more. Give him some more shots. What happens when he misses five in a row and is getting cooked on defense for like,

six straight possessions. Again, in the regular season teams aren’t gonna be as ruthless about targeting people most of the time, but there’s gonna be some times where Sam Merrill’s deficiencies show up. Same thing with George Niang. Like, what happens if he’s not making shots? Like, what happens if the players, the people you were trying to empower are not using the power? Well, at some point you gotta make a change. And then at some point, like, that’s just coaching. I think JB did have a little bit of a quick hook, particularly on offense first guys, but…

That’s, mean, you have to make the shot. It’s kind of a chicken or the egg. Like I need to give you confidence for you to make the shot, but you need to make the shot for me to give you my confidence. So that’s the thing. Even again, with this, there is time for the flowy, beautiful high school coach’s dream of an offense where everybody touches the ball and you make seven passes on a possession.

Chris (41:21.548)

the

Jimmy Watkins (41:38.998)

It’s great. Everyone would love to play that way all the time. I’m sure it looks super fun. Everyone wants to be like the group of 40 year old dudes at the Y or just ball moving dudes off the court who are way better than them. Everyone, that’s great. That’s great. But sometimes it’s better to just give Donovan Mitchell the ball and get the heck out of the way. Sometimes your beautiful, flowy offense creates indecisions. There’s a hierarchy here. You need to remind people of that. Donovan Mitchell is going to, by the way,

sometimes just be like, yeah, I know we were supposed to run a super flowy play here, but like, I think this dude in front of me is mince meat and I’m gonna go to the rim. And that’s just how it works. That’s real life. There’s a beautiful picture that the Cavs are painting. And I think there are elements of it that Kenny will at least try to make come to fruition. And I think the dudes right now are open to hearing him out, is particularly because they all feel like the last coach wasn’t giving them what they needed.

Chris (42:13.664)

Yeah. Right.

Yeah.

Jimmy Watkins (42:37.206)

But there will come a point where you’re down 10 and Donovan Mitchell might just be like, yeah, I think this is my time to take over. that then we, huh, that looks a lot like the JB Bicker staff often. Yeah, cause Donovan Mitchell is really good. And that’s just how it works sometimes. So I wanna see how all this flowery fairy tale stuff works out when we start playing real hard basketball games.

Chris (42:47.595)

Right.

Chris (43:01.706)

In the words of LeBron James when he was talking about David Blatt in Chicago, when it seemed like the calves, the season that they got together, it was all teetering. Yeah, I scratched it. I scratched that play.

Jimmy Watkins (43:13.926)

I’m so glad you brought up LeBron Chris. Today he gave the annual LeBron quote. They have a new coach, JJ Reddick, and someone was like, JJ wants to use you off the ball more LeBron. How do you feel about that? And LeBron’s like, I can do anything on the basketball court. I’ll do whatever the team needs to win. Isn’t it weird that JJ Reddick’s the first coach ever to consider using LeBron James off the ball? Isn’t that crazy? How has no one done this before? He’s a super athletic player. can really, he’s clearly, he would be a great cutter in theory. That’s so, we wrestle Westbrook.

Chris (43:31.542)

Yeah.

Chris (43:35.958)

What? Why?

Jimmy Watkins (43:43.156)

If Russell Westbrook could just figure out how to play without the ball, I mean, why has no one tried this before? LeBron James is gonna play like LeBron James, because he’s LeBron James. That’s just how it works.

Chris (43:43.273)

I’m

Chris (43:53.585)

Yeah. David Blatt was finally about to get some modicum of credit for the play that he designed during a timeout that led the Cavs to a win on the road in Chicago, saving their season. And LeBron’s like, noop. Noop. I scratched it. I designed that one myself.

Jimmy Watkins (44:15.242)

And again, one more thing real quick. This is another, this is gonna be a fascinating insight into Donovan’s psyche too, because like, this is not the hand-picked coach, but it’s the coach that they consulted on you with throughout the entire process, and they would not have hired him without your approval. like, you better be open to hearing him out. what happens if Donovan Mitchell, like he has that kind of clout within this organization now, where if he wants to,

Chris (44:20.362)

Yeah, right.

Chris (44:25.067)

Yeah.

Chris (44:28.565)

Mm-hmm.

Chris (44:38.017)

Yeah.

Jimmy Watkins (44:45.226)

He can say, no Kenny, I think we should do this. Like, will he do that? Will it be a big deal if he does? Or is that part of Kenny’s like egalitarian paradise? Where, that’s cool, Darwin. You take the clipboard. It’s everybody’s clipboard. Is there even a clipboard? Like, what happens?

Chris (44:48.422)

Mm hmm. Yeah.

Chris (44:59.733)

Yeah.

Chris (45:03.86)

Right. And what did he learn from the Tai Lu interactions with Kawhi Leonard and Paul George? And what did he learn from the interactions that Steve Kerr had, with Draymond Green and Steph Curry and do those same things, whatever it was, work with this group of players? Because that’s one thing that any coach would tell you is that like you, you can’t communicate with every single player the same kind of way.

and what worked at one place may not work in another place. So I do think the dynamic between Kenny and Donovan star player with coach, I do think that’s something that is worth monitoring as well. And it’s something that Kenny has talked about now in both press conferences that he has done.

Jimmy Watkins (45:51.658)

I keep having ideas. How comparable is the Steph Curry experience to the Donovan Mitchell experience? Like Steph Curry is quite literally the most, modern day Tim Duncan, the most unselfish superstar we’ve ever had, had built an empire, a Western Conference empire from the ground up. Like he’s the reason there is a Chase Center in San Francisco. And he was just like,

You guys wanna give the team to Kevin Durant kinda and have me adjust everything I do based off him? That’s cool. There’s some pretty big egos in the NBA. I don’t know how many teams, like how many players would also be willing to do that. I think Donovan is great. He’s unselfish. He does and says a lot of the right things, but it’s just like, man, Steph Curry is like the extreme spectrum of unselfish. Yeah, man, go with the flow, whatever. I don’t think we know where Donovan Mitchell falls on that spectrum right now.

Or at least I don’t, and I’m very interested to learn more about it.

Ethan Sands (46:55.502)

What I’ve heard from other players, at least today, was that he’s humble enough to like, know to get away from situations or be able to like understand that he is one of the best players in the league, but will do whatever it takes to help the team win, help you gain confidence. Like there were times last season where he understood that he needed to get Darius Garland in the game for him to get going and would defer to Darius in order for him to try and

boost his ego, his confidence, all of those things to create an offense that would then turn back to him when it needed to, right? But I think that’s a good point, Jimmy, because when we talk about where Donovan Mitchell stands on the totem pole, it’s always gonna be at the top, but how much is he gonna be able to lift players up to be at his level or be close to it to be able to create a team that’s gonna be able to keep going forward?

And I wanted to bring it back to something that you had mentioned earlier about what happens if these guys aren’t doing what you’re paying them for. If you’re bringing them on to be shooters, scorers, if they’re not doing those things. I talked to Sam Merrill about him struggling last season at the end of the year and him having a short leash. He literally said that there was a point in the season where he just forgot how to shoot the basketball. And unfortunately, that’s how it happens. He obviously came back to say like,

that usually doesn’t happen in his career or whatever, but shooters have drive spells, all those different things. My thing is for this next season is kind of like what happened when Max Drews came from Miami to Cleveland. Obviously everybody already knew Max Drews was a shooter, but they still had to guard other players maybe a little closer. Duncan Robinson, Jimmy Butler, Tyler Harrow, whatever you want to describe it as.

But now Sam Marrows got to the point where he’s not only on people’s radars, but they at the end of last season, you saw they were able to send to keep eyes on him, all those different things to limit his success. And I wanted to know more so of how he, how he prepared for this next season to be able to be like, you’re throwing two at me. We’re going to get off ball. And then he comes back to the Kenny Atkinson thing and goes, well, I think I’m going to have more opportunities.

Ethan Sands (49:17.456)

to get around screens, I might set screens myself and then come off of them to be able to create open opportunities for me. And I think like, just that brings everything together, right? The offense is going to lead from what Kenny Atkinson draws up, the actions, the DHOs, the pin downs, all these other things. Things that these guys haven’t had an opportunity to show that they’ve been good at in J.B. Bicker’s offense. And I think that’s something that

Chris (49:32.108)

Thank

Ethan Sands (49:46.336)

One, I want to be able to key in on, especially for the shooters like Max Truss can screen, Sam Merrill can screen, George Nieng can screen. These are all strong guys. And like I mentioned earlier, everybody that I talked to today said that they were in the weight room either for George Nieng trying to get in the best shape of his life. Everybody else trying to put on mass, put on strength, whatever. I just think it’s interesting for how this roster is being constructed that they’re going to try and be able to construct and to be able to compete with.

all these other beings, especially if they’re out of position.

Chris (50:18.538)

Well, objective number one for this organization is be more dynamic, more diverse and more creative on the offensive end of the floor. 16th in offensive rating during the regular season and, you know, ugly as can be in the postseason for two straight years. It’s just not good enough with the level of talent that they have and the level of scoring that they have. And I know that there are questions about fit, especially when it comes

to Evan Mobley and Jared Allen and even Donovan Mitchell and Darius Garland to a point. And there are certain weak points across this roster. Like, Azuka Koro is a disrespected player who just isn’t guarded by opposing defenses. There are some spacing concerns that the Cavs can run into with certain lineups, especially with the two bigs together. So there are certainly those things built into just how this roster is constructed, but

for two years in a row in the playoffs, his offense has just been ugly. And we talked about like how difficult it was at times for these guys just to have to work for quality shots. And offense cannot be a chore for the third year in a row for this group. And I think last year they brought in Max Streus, they brought in George Niang, they brought in Ty Jerome, got two games out of him.

But they brought in guys that they felt like addressed some of the flaws that showed up in that series against the New York Knicks where the Cavs had the worst offense in creation basically in the playoffs. And they thought that the pieces that they brought in were going to help that offense go to the next level. I don’t think they had in their mind 16th overall in offensive rating in the NBA and one of the worst again.

in the postseason for the second year in a row. So finding a way to get that offense into the top 10, that has to be priority number one for this group. Because again, they do have questions about how this roster is constructed, but there’s enough talent, there’s enough explosiveness and firepower for this to be more top half of the NBA than what it has been.

Jimmy Watkins (52:42.358)

I hate to do this because we’ve run this point into the ground at this point, but JB Bickerstaff did find a way last regular season to get that offense in the top half of the NBA. it was play one big. There’s the other thing, right? If you want to play the two bigs and you think you can make a top half of the league, ideally higher, you want to be top 10 if you’re going to be talking about going where this team wants to be going.

You want to do that with both bigs on the court, the Cavs will point to the Warriors and say, hey, they did it. Well, yeah, they have two of the greatest shooters of all time, both of whom were extremely comfortable moving without the ball all the time, all the time. Steph is never not moving. Clay is never not moving in that offense. That would be a significant, significant departure for Darius and Donovan to do. Throughout their entire careers, I’ve never seen, not saying they can’t or they won’t.

Chris (53:18.262)

Mm-hmm.

Jimmy Watkins (53:39.67)

but none of them, because no one does moves like the Warriors do. it, we’re having, it’s like a, the Cavs are, this is a big picture, this is a small picture thing, but it’s a big picture thing. Small picture, I don’t know if Darius Donovan are gonna run like that. Big picture, is this a coach thing or is it a roster thing? The Cavs are trying to do, the Cavs are saying, it’s a coach thing, this guy will figure it out. Okay, there’s still two big dudes standing in the pain all the time, so.

Chris (53:44.043)

Mm-hmm.

Chris (53:57.133)

Yeah.

Jimmy Watkins (54:06.366)

It’s cool, I get it, Kenny’s like, okay, making decisions is about what you do without the ball as much as you do, as much as it is about what you do with the ball. Yeah, go screen people, be in the way, make people account for you at all times. They still don’t have to guard you unless you’re at the rim. That’s a hard reality to get over.

Chris (54:24.234)

And that point that you just made right there is why nobody should assume that this is the roster following the trade deadline.

Ethan Sands (54:34.758)

Alright guys, well, it is time to wrap this…

Jimmy Watkins (54:38.71)

What a cliffhanger, what a cliffhanger. This is the biggest cliffhanger ever on this podcast as we try to talk about the Nets, Jared Allen’s number hanging in the Nets rafters. I had a brief moment where I was like, who is hanging in the Brooklyn Nets rafters? I guess there’s some guys from the New Jersey Nets, like Cam Thomas one day, Cam Thomas, 25 shots a game, Cam Thomas up in the rafters. Great.

Ethan Sands (55:03.984)

unless he’s in-

Chris (55:04.086)

Well, it’s not going to be James Harden or Guy Rearving.

Jimmy Watkins (55:07.168)

Kyrie Irving was on the right track with the Kyrie and Kenny are on the same wavelength. We don’t need a coach. Everyone’s the coach. We all just live in one big happy reality.

Ethan Sands (55:18.342)

Well, I feel like this the media day that answered a whole lot of questions left us wanting to ask more questions and get answers to more questions and Well, that’s what Chris is gonna do when he goes to training camp literally tomorrow morning So that’s why we got to wrap this one up So Chris can get some shut-eye before taking a 6 a.m. Flight to Florida to go and see these guys again. I know they had that too, but so with that being said

Chris (55:42.601)

Packed too.

Ethan Sands (55:48.29)

That’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast. But remember to become a Cavs Insider and interact with Chris, me, and Jimmy by subscribing to Subtext. We’re getting back to the time where it’s going to be four or five podcasts a week. So that means we’re coming back with Hey Chris episodes where you can send your questions in to us via Subtext and we can give you our responses, takes,

answers to all the questions that you may have. To do all of this, sign up for a 14-day free trial or visit cleveland.com backslash calves and click on the blue bar at the top of the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy, but we can tell you that the people who signed up stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the calves from me, Chris, and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast. It’s your podcast and the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’all be safe. We out.