What Sunday’s win tells us about the Browns and Deshaun Watson; Kenny Atkinson and the 4-0 Cavs: Terry’s Talkin’ podcast

David Campbell (01:06.02)

Hey everybody, welcome to this week’s edition of the Terry’s Talking Podcast. I’m David Campbell, your host. Mr. Terry Pluto is joining me as he does every week. Pretty eventful week, Terry, how you doing?

Terry Pluto (01:17.614)

I’m doing all right. I have to admit, even though I knew Jimmy Donovan was in hospice and that the end was near, it still hit me pretty hard. Later, it’s funny, it’s like when I had these people that I’ve known who passed away, including my father even, and I wrote about them, it was very therapeutic and all that for a while, and then it would hit me later on. it was really a…

Basically it was a cool day at the stadium because of all the people talking about Jimmy telling the stories and I think that that’s exactly how Jimmy would have wanted it, a celebration of life.

David Campbell (01:57.06)

Yeah, I was trying to put some notes together for the podcast and I actually wrote celebration of life. mean, the fans were there to pay tribute. but I just want to tell listeners here real quick, like anybody who hasn’t read your column about Jim that you wrote, last week talking to Doug Deacon and Andre Nott. it was really something about how Doug and Jimmy sat and watched.

Terry Pluto (02:04.034)

Mm-hmm.

David Campbell (02:20.9)

the Browns game together on October 6th. And I think Doug’s quote was, never know when it’s going to be the last rodeo. were, we were just two guys watching a Browns game. just really touching. And I thought that our colleague, Jimmy Watkins wrote a really nice column. Monday morning about kind of connecting. It was kind of like, I think his thing was like, God might not care about football, but Jim Donovan did on Sunday and in terms of making things happen for the Browns and.

Terry Pluto (02:23.789)

Yeah.

Terry Pluto (02:27.693)

Yeah.

Terry Pluto (02:45.695)

Yeah

David Campbell (02:48.942)

and how it was just kind of a Jim Donovan Browns fan day. Yeah.

Terry Pluto (02:52.518)

You know, and I wish I just thought of it just comes to me now and you know, Jimmy had the famous line in 2020 when they made the playoffs and beat the Steelers and that and where he said the only thing missing. Where was all of you fans? And I thought. Roberto’s best friend, Mary Kelly, who loves the Browns, she texted right after she just said.

it was such a great game. I just wish I could have heard Jimmy call it. And that’s not a knock on Andrew Siciliano. Look, anybody that follows these great broadcasters, it’s really, really hard. Whether it was Casey Coleman told me that after he came in after Neff Chowder, Casey was well known on the market and everything. And so see, Jimmy actually came back.

rather he came in after the move and Casey then was out four years and he became the on the field guy. And then Casey passed away from pancreatic cancer, Nev Chandler, who Casey replaced colon cancer and something else. mean, it’s Doug, I’ll tell you, Doug Deacon has just been rocked by all this, you know, and also Danny Cogwell is one of his closest friends too, but you just.

David Campbell (04:15.024)

Hmm.

Terry Pluto (04:16.898)

He’s just said, boy, there’s something about that radio booth. mean, you don’t want to think too long or deep about that, but it is pretty remarkable what happened to them.

David Campbell (04:26.83)

Yeah, well, hopefully Sunday was a day that can kind of help people cope with losing Jimmy and you mentioned Andrew Siciliano, Terry. did, I thought he gave a really nice monologue after, not a monologue, but kind of a game wrap up after the game. He was talking about cancer and you could hear he was on the verge of, of tears almost talking about it. I think, I think Andrew has, you’re right. He’s been put in a tough spot, but I think any Browns fans who are listening to the broadcast can see that he cares passionately about.

Terry Pluto (04:29.375)

Yep.

Terry Pluto (04:39.328)

Yeah.

Terry Pluto (04:46.576)

Mm-hmm.

David Campbell (04:56.57)

Jim Donovan and cares about the Browns and cares about the fans. And he is, I think he’s really doing a phenomenal job. so I just wanted to mention that, but,

Terry Pluto (05:04.672)

Yeah, I think that that’s right. Yeah. It’s like, Jimmy Donovan would say, give him some grace and give him some patient. And Jimmy will tell you that he was a much better broadcaster three, five, 10 years and doing the Browns. Then that first year in 99 Deacon told me an interesting thing about they had these kind of pseudo tryouts or whatever, where they were matching up color.

David Campbell (05:10.862)

Hmm, that’s a good word.

Terry Pluto (05:31.778)

possible color analysts with play-by-play guys. And Doug couldn’t remember everybody he was with, but he was with three different play-by-play guys. He knew one was Jeff Feltz. He couldn’t remember the rest, but none of them were Jimmy Donovan. And Donovan was with three different color analysts and none was Deacon. And they went that direction. So that was a…

David Campbell (05:47.418)

Mm.

Terry Pluto (05:59.758)

It’s one of those things that my father used to don’t never worry about how you get the job. If you get the job you want, so what? It doesn’t matter if three guys turn it down. It doesn’t matter if one of the bosses didn’t want to hire you, wanted to hire somebody else, but somebody overruled him. By the way, I had that happen in my career once. It just matters, did you get the job and what did you do with it?

David Campbell (06:06.365)

Ha

David Campbell (06:19.834)

Yeah, there’s a, there’s a great documentary. It’s called some kind of monster. And it’s about, the band Metallica, the metal band Metallica, and they needed a new bass player and they held, they held tryouts. And when it was over the guy, ended up picking that they basically said, like, I don’t know what it is, but I just play better when I’m with him. And it’s kind of like, I think that’s what happened with Jimmy Donovan and Doug Deacon. Like the, think the Browns, got it right. I mean, when they picked those two guys and you just know sometimes.

Terry Pluto (06:26.648)

Mm-hmm.

Terry Pluto (06:37.172)

Yeah, well that’s it’s sort of like that. Yeah

David Campbell (06:49.0)

that it just feels right. yeah, fans were very lucky to have that duo calling games as long as they did. It was really something.

Terry Pluto (06:54.272)

I how about Donovan? You know, he grew up in Boston and he loved the Bruins. His father would take him as a kid to Bruins games and he would take his tape recorder with him when he was like 10, 12 years old. And because that tape recorder would be doing the games from the stands. And he said, I’m sure he wasn’t so sure how the fans around them felt, but his dad thought it was fun. And that’s how he started. But then later, cause he worked in, after he got out of Boston, he worked at

Burlington, Vermont doing a double-A baseball. In fact, that franchise that he did up there is now the Akron, is now in Akron. It’s Akron rubber ducks. If you connect all the dots of where it moved all the time. But Jimmy then said he had to learn and work at getting rid of his Boston accent. Because if you want to go somewhere and broadcasting, actually that’s the one advantage growing up in Midwest. They love how we talk.

David Campbell (07:51.396)

Yeah, there’s, I think there’s been a lot of, well, Johnny Carson was from Nebraska. Like a lot of newscasters and TV personalities are from, from the Midwest or have a Midwest accent. So we’ll listen to her. got some really, I think last week we said we really wanted to, open things up for on this podcast for listeners emails. So we have a lot of those, some of them about Jimmy Donovan. I’ll get into some of those right now. I know we want to talk about the Sean Watson and Jamis Winston and what’s going on with the Browns and man, the calves are off for a.

Terry Pluto (07:55.991)

Yeah.

Terry Pluto (08:10.222)

Mm-hmm.

David Campbell (08:19.696)

to a 4-0 start, we’ll get into that. But let’s spend a little bit of time on Sunday with the Browns. Their 29-24 win over the Ravens. Here’s a few emails that came in. This first one is from DGL from Wilmington, North Carolina. He says, what a great game by the Browns. My first thought after Baltimore was out of time was how much Jimmy Donovan would have loved it. He deserved this game on the day he was honored. So thanks for that. Here’s one from

Jerry Stroh and he says, Hi Terry, I wanted to relay a story about Jim Donovan and his common touch with my family. My brother Kevin was undergoing treatment for multiple myeloma. I sent Jim Donovan a blank card and asked him to write some words of encouragement since Jim was such an expert at fighting cancer. The card with very kind words from Jim arrived at Kevin’s home. A day or two later, it buoyed my brother’s spirits to have Jim’s good wishes and gave him a bright point during his battle with that dreaded disease.

Jimmy had that common touch. Kev and I were dedicated soldiers to Jim Brown’s broadcasts. Kev passed away before Jimmy, but I hope and pray they look for one another in heaven. They could be the best of friends. So thanks for that, Jerry.

Terry Pluto (09:32.056)

Well, he was known, I can tell you this, when I did that three-part series on him a couple years ago, for being in communication with people, especially with leukemia, which is what started all this with Jimmy. And Jimmy’s whole family, his uncle had it, his dad had it. It was one of those where when he was diagnosed, he knew right away he was in trouble and he knew right away what it was.

David Campbell (09:59.536)

All right, well, Terry, here’s this last one. This one is from a listener, Jim Welsh, and Jim lives in Princeton, Texas, and he writes, Dear Cleveland.com family and friends, I’m saddened to hear about the passing of the wonderful Jimmy Donovan. He will be remembered as a fantastic announcer and even a better person. No matter the quality of the product on the field, his voice, excitement, and eternal optimism has always consistently inspired us Browns fans to tune in for what we all hoped was the promise of a great game and a bright future.

Alas, he has passed on, but I’m quite sure that Jimmy will be moving from the center straight up on our radio dial. I’m looking forward to meeting you there. Best wishes, Jim Welsh from Princeton, Texas. Thanks for that one, Jim. Yeah, I think Sunday was one of those days that fans are to remember for a long time and for a lot of ways. So thanks for those emails, everybody. if you have any more thoughts on Jim Donovan, send them in.

Terry Pluto (10:35.133)

Hahaha

Terry Pluto (10:47.116)

Yeah, they will.

David Campbell (10:56.584)

We will try to get some on future podcasts. So, all right, Terry, moving on to the football part of things. You wrote a column today kind of asking the what if question. We heard a lot of what ifs after the Browns win on Sunday in a lot of different ways. Why don’t you talk about that and kind of what you’re seeing from the Jamis Winston beginning here and what it means for DeJon Watson. And yeah, tell us where you stand on all this.

Terry Pluto (11:07.148)

Mm-hmm.

Terry Pluto (11:21.858)

Well, first of all, I’ve got a couple of all had Kyle Hamilton not dropped that interception right at the end near the end of the game. We’d be having completely different discussion and whatever. And I disagree on that. You wouldn’t have the euphoria of beating Baltimore and you wouldn’t have had the great pass to Cedric Tillman there right after that. But I do believe most fans would be saying, wait a minute, you know, we slapped 23 points up on Baltimore. It couldn’t score more than 18.

It was a fun game to watch. haven’t had that. And James Winston looked like a professional quarterback. And I will just say that oftentimes Deshaun Watson did not. So there would have been hope anyway, but not as it is here. So I, I’m not going to just say, because that guy dropped an interception. Look, James is going to throw interceptions and the beloved wacko for Flacco in his five starts, he threw 13 touchdown passes and eight picks.

and you saw it kind of turned on him in that playoff game at Houston. Nonetheless, these guys, they make big plays and sometimes the plays go the other way, but at least you might score some points.

David Campbell (12:34.862)

And I don’t know that anybody’s saying that Jameis Winston is the long-term answer here or anything, it’s, like last year when Watson went out, we saw what happened with Joe Flacco and you’re like, all right, wow, that was kind of fluky and unusual and that was a really fun ride for fans. But like it’s happening again. and you know, what’s the old saying, fool me once, fool on you, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. Well, like this is the second time potentially.

Terry Pluto (12:46.69)

Mm-hmm.

Terry Pluto (12:53.836)

Yeah.

David Campbell (13:04.698)

that this could be happening where Deshaun Watson went down with an injury and his replacement, a big drop back passer has come in and ignited the offense in a way that Deshaun hasn’t really been able to do since he’s been here.

Terry Pluto (13:16.694)

And he was a cast off. That’s the other point. This is a cast off. Deshaun goes down. Flacco, the old office couch. Of course, the story that Flacco doesn’t like to tell was true. He got up at six in the morning, five days a week and worked out with a trainer. He did more a pro trainer, not just, yes, he threw passes to his brother and father, but he was just waiting and waiting. But nonetheless, he was a cast off.

The fact that Deshaun, excuse me, that James Winston signed for 4 million, that is like you and I pulling for 40 bucks in NFL money. I mean, he was just a guy out there and they picked him up and he comes in. Now I don’t think this week he’s going to have as big a game as that. The Chargers are ranked number one in defense. They’re only giving up 13 points a game, but let’s see if he could go for 20. Give suddenly 20 points became the, this insurmountable barrier to a team. But if you want to carry that deeper.

All right, and his starts as 19 starts with the Browns. The Sean Watson threw zero of 300 gains. How many times did he get 200 yards passing?

David Campbell (14:27.216)

I should know this number, but I’m gonna guess eight. Okay.

Terry Pluto (14:31.47)

Okay. And you look at Jacobi Berset. 11 starts, 10 times he was over 200, once he was over 300. Jacobi Berset. So we have Jacobi Berset, we have Joe Focco, and we have now Jameis Winston.

And those guys all played better than Watson did.

David Campbell (15:08.432)

So what does this tell you Terry about next season? And it’s early, like the Browns don’t need to make any 20, 25 decisions right now, but what would you, I’m interested in how Deshaun fits in the grand scheme of what the Browns are thinking. And from day one when that contract was signed, it’s always been Deshaun Watson is our starter. We’re gonna do whatever it takes to make him successful.

Terry Pluto (15:16.64)

No.

Terry Pluto (15:31.15)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

David Campbell (15:33.946)

We’re going to redo the offense to make him successful. We’re going to bend everything we need to bend around him. Should that change? Should this be an open competition next year? I we don’t know what’s going to happen the rest of this season, but we know that the book is closed under Sean Watson. So what should they be feeling about him at this point?

Terry Pluto (15:36.824)

Yeah.

Terry Pluto (15:49.12)

Well, first of all, well, you’re not going to cut him now. There’s not a salary cap reasons. There’s a moral reason and ethical one. He’s recovering from Achilles surgery, which is major. So you got to make sure he’s here. He’s getting all the medical care he wants here, or he may go out to LA and have it done there because that’s what he did with his shoulder surgery. But regardless, you, you support him on all that coming back. But in terms of going forward, you’ve got to

You look to draft one. you, know they want to look at DTR some, I want to look at Jamis quite a bit and see, you know, maybe he could be quote the bridge quarterback to the next one. Deshaun Watson’s in the rear view mirror. Now how they do that, will be determined. I mean, remember when things went sideways with Watson, first he was holding out back in 2021, demanding a trade. Then some of the,

of the accusations came out against him, and basically Houston just paid him to stay home.

David Campbell (16:58.65)

So we haven’t heard anything like this from the Browns, obviously, but you really think that they’re kind of in the rear view mirror with him, as you just put it.

Terry Pluto (17:07.042)

They should be. They have to be at least partially because you can’t you have now you’ve had two seasons in a row of major injuries and really watching Jamis throw the ball now. Maybe Sean’s arm isn’t as strong as we thought either.

David Campbell (17:30.126)

Well, yeah, so not to throw a bunch of pop culture references in here, Terry, but you know, the Beckett play, the classic Beckett play, Waiting for Godot, right? They’re waiting for Godot, waiting for Godot. I feel like the Browns are waiting. They’ve been waiting and waiting, waiting for this Deshaun Watson to show up, this version of Deshaun Watson. And I think you’re right. I think it’s time for them to come to the realization that it’s not going to happen. And that in

Terry Pluto (17:42.316)

Yeah.

David Campbell (17:56.552)

He needs to move from he’s our starter. We’re going to bend everything to make this work with him. I think they need to take that down a few notches and be like, just like you laid out, Terry, Jamis Winston, bring him back to Sean Watson. We’ll be back and draft as high as you can and draft the best quarterback you can get in the draft. Move up if you need to. And now you’ve got a good layering, right? And just make it an open competition. And every other competition, every other position is up for competition, except for maybe Miles Garrett.

Terry Pluto (18:18.754)

Yeah.

David Campbell (18:25.424)

I think this should be the same thing. think they have earned this through what they’ve seen so far that they need to have an open competition.

Terry Pluto (18:33.922)

Yeah, I mean, pretty, you had what, three or four quarterbacks in here last year. And, and I mean, in my mind, the problem with having Deshaun in camp next year is we all these questions about Deshaun.

Terry Pluto (18:50.728)

And how long is this cloud gonna hang over this franchise?

David Campbell (18:57.168)

two more years, maybe longer.

Terry Pluto (18:59.828)

Well, that may be hangs over to financially fiscally, but it doesn’t necessarily hang over them physically with him there. Yeah. What? Cause Houston decided first when he was caught, it caught, grabbed an attitude and wanted to sit out one year into a four year contract. And then when the other stuff came out, they just said, forget it. He’s an active every week or whatever they did, but he was not around.

David Campbell (19:07.468)

on the roster, right.

David Campbell (19:27.044)

All right. Well, I’m going to play devil’s advocate for a second, Terry. So, all right. If I’m Deshaun Watson. And again, I talked about this last week to watch him crying as he was carted off the field. Here’s a guy who made a some big mistakes in Houston, right? And he comes to Cleveland to get a fresh start.

Terry Pluto (19:30.039)

Okay.

Terry Pluto (19:43.838)

made mistakes.

David Campbell (19:56.994)

After Deshaun was hurt, but like since he’s come to Cleveland, he has tried to do the right things since he’s gotten here. And does he deserve in terms of the coaching staff and the front office to be just kind of not allowed to be around the team going into next season.

Terry Pluto (20:16.504)

Well, I mean, if you were a normal quarterback.

First of all, if you’re a normal quarterback, about three or four games in the season, he would have been benched. Let’s get real. A normal quarterback would have been benched.

David Campbell (20:28.878)

Right. But there’s a difference between that and like don’t show up to the facility we don’t you around.

Terry Pluto (20:34.058)

Well, you know, I don’t, again, I’m just throwing that out. That’s what Houston did. I don’t know what the answer is. and I guess it’s right now at this point, let’s just see what he wants. You know, he may not want to come back and then they could work something out. He may not want to be kind of the ghost haunting this situation. He may want to work out in his own till they could work out something for him to go somewhere else. what I’m more interested in is like, all right, you got DTR, you got Jamis.

David Campbell (20:38.084)

Yeah, right.

David Campbell (20:48.368)

That’s true.

Terry Pluto (21:04.97)

And then you would have a quarterback to be drafted or something like that. Now, Jane, you know, if James plays exceptionally well, maybe you’ll get a contract somewhere else. Although, you know, Flacco really didn’t generate that much interest. I mean, he ended up going to Baltimore for what? 6 million or something. I’m, excuse me, the Colts, Indianapolis Colts are 6 million, which is, as I said, it’s like 60 bucks in our economy. And so by the way, Flacco is a free agent.

David Campbell (21:35.14)

Yeah, that’s true. There’s going to be some guys out there like that.

Terry Pluto (21:36.743)

Yeah, there’ll be some interesting guys if you want to do the bridge quarterback thing, but here’s where I want to go with it on a bigger point.

Terry Pluto (21:47.778)

Coaches tell players, you’re evaluated by how you play. The film don’t lie, et cetera. The players also knew three or four games into this, if not before that, that Deshaun doesn’t have it. They knew it. In fact, if you listen to most of what they said, he’s a battler, he’s tough, he’s working hard, he cares. Nobody’s talking about franchise quarterback anymore.

David Campbell (22:16.24)

bar has been lowered,

Terry Pluto (22:17.728)

Yeah, because they saw it. If you think, and I think we see mistakes he was making, not seeing open receivers or whatever, when they broke down that tape and they know, and the same thing with the sacks. Yes, Baltimore’s past defense was ranked at last. Baltimore was number one against the run was number six in sacks. So upfront, they certainly in the past have been able to generate pressure.

And sacks. The Sean was, excuse me, James was sacked twice. And one was they just blew an assignment when St. Kyle Hamilton came in from the weak side to hit him and he was fumbled. They just didn’t pick it up. But for the most part, he was not under a lot of pressure because he didn’t hold the ball well. Now you talk from an offensive line perspective.

David Campbell (23:09.998)

Well, Terry, you’ve mentioned this many times is that and we saw this with Flacco last year, the offensive lineman know exactly where Jamis Winston was going to be the whole game, which was which was in the pocket, like almost exclusively. And that made their lives easier. And we have to point this out, too. This was the this was the most hole we’ve seen the Browns offensive line this season because of injuries. And with the Dwan Jones at left tackle, Postic was back at center, which he’s

Terry Pluto (23:38.146)

By the way, that was supposed to be a disaster. had writers and everybody tell me you would think they were putting Mickey Mouse at left tackle. way they were talking about, there was no chance this guy’s going to get killed.

David Campbell (23:45.754)

Ha ha ha!

David Campbell (23:50.116)

Well, what we saw Sunday might be the Browns offensive line of 2025. all those guys are back. And if that’s the way it is, then I think they could live with that. I think that was a pretty good performance Sunday. So we’ll see. But again, we’re going to get more data on Jamis Winston. We’re going to have more looks at the offensive line. Like we’ll know by the end of the season what we’re looking at.

Terry Pluto (23:54.53)

Yeah.

Terry Pluto (24:06.048)

Yeah, that’s the thing you got, right. got all this. This is really great about this. Now you could find out what your team is. I just believe that Watson had become such a drag on things that it became, there was such a negative vibe. I’m not saying his attitude, but his performance and the fact that nobody likes it in the workplace when they see somebody in a prominent position and they know he has the prominent position for something other than performance. Nobody likes that.

And that was what was going on with the Browns. And it was very evident now, even if Winston throws three picks next week and whatever, it’s, it, was something really wrong on the offensive side of the ball. And it was not all it, but much of it was with the quarterback. And I also believe when

This was much like Flacco too. When Winston rolled out, he usually rolled to his right and they kind of had an idea where he was going. It wasn’t these zigzags running all over the place. And I know Lamar Jackson does it. Lamar Jackson is just incredible. I’ve never seen anything quite like that. Mahomes runs around, not like Jackson. Jackson’s like a running back too. by the way, we got to get, we got.

David Campbell (25:25.486)

Yeah, rules for the Lamar Jackson rules don’t apply to everybody else.

Terry Pluto (25:28.94)

don’t apply. it’s just like, you know, this is how we place the defense. Now, what do think the defense showed you?

David Campbell (25:40.92)

that’s a good question. I, I think they went really deep into that defensive backfield the other day when they lost Emerson for a little bit and they lost Denzel Ward. And I was impressed with how they fought till the end. And I was impressed with how hard that front four played the whole game. and it was, it was a good performance against a really good offense and.

Terry Pluto (25:50.637)

Yeah.

Terry Pluto (26:00.046)

Mm-hmm.

David Campbell (26:06.604)

Again, we’re going to have nine more games of data to see what we learn about this team. So I just, I think it was a really good day for the Browns. I thought they coached a good game. thought they, like, again, even if they would have lost, I thought the defense played really well. I, and there weren’t a lot of blown coverages. Guys were tackling well. I hope J. Okay. Is it sounds like he’s going to be okay after that really hard hit he took from Derek Henry. They were without him at the end. I mean, they were really down to the last guys in a lot of ways.

Terry Pluto (26:35.458)

Mm-hmm.

David Campbell (26:36.45)

and they held on. So I thought it was a really impressive showing.

Terry Pluto (26:40.022)

And also when they’re not out there all day, that makes a difference.

David Campbell (26:46.553)

The quarterback play makes a difference for everybody, like across the roster in terms of having hope, in terms of time and possession. I know you were looking at the time possession the other day, Terry, in the first half, because you wanted to see how long the Browns held the ball. It matters for everybody. It matters for everybody. So, all right. Hey, let’s take a break here, Terry. We are trying to kind of spend some time with listener emails today. And we’ve got quite a few on the stadium issue that I wanted to kind of read and see what we think of those.

Terry Pluto (26:55.576)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it was a lot. Yeah.

Terry Pluto (27:13.057)

Okay.

David Campbell (27:15.17)

And also we have the forno calves to talk about. We’ll get into that and more when we return on Terry’s Talking.

David Campbell (31:33.136)

Hey, welcome back to Terry’s talking. Hey, before I forget, don’t forget to check out Terry’s newsletter. It comes out every Wednesday at noon. It’s got great inside stuff, things Terry’s thinking about, different takes on Cleveland sports and his faith in U-column. Just go to cleveland.com slash Pluto, go to the blue bar at the top, and you can subscribe right there. It’s very easy. So, all right, Terry, we wanted to kind of highlight listener letters this week, and we got quite a few emails on the stadium issue. So.

I thought we would run through some of these and kind of get your thoughts on them. So, all right. This first one is from Rob and Rob says, I lived in Cleveland in the nineties when the three new stadiums were built. Team owners had to have them. And I believe at that time, Cuyahoga County mandated a sin tax for 28 years. Those stadiums are not that old. Look at the Brown’s stadium before it was rebuilt, how old it was. It was really old. I just think once again, the taxpayers foot the bill for the millionaires. If we’ve forgotten, it’s still only a game.

Terry Pluto (32:24.054)

Yes.

David Campbell (32:30.67)

Maybe just maybe with eight games per season for football and much like Modell, if the owners don’t get they want, they threaten to move the team. My belief is all stadiums should be privately owned by the cities, much like NASCAR. The tracks are privately owned. Team owners have too much control. The windows get dirty and they want a new stadium to keep up with the Joneses. Now I hear a new stadium will be built in Brook Park with a dome because of the inclement weather.

Isn’t it history that when you go to Cleveland in the winter time, dealing with the weather is part of the experience? It’s ridiculous. Another thing with these stadiums, after taxpayers foot the bill, some bank or business throws a million or two and the stadium gets named for them. It’s a slap in the face to the people who pay for everything and pay for the tickets. And let’s face it for a team that’s not darn good, not today, but for decades. I don’t go to any sports events anymore because of the fleecing. I know there are people that just can’t do without it, but the fleecing to the taxpayers has gotten out of hand.

These are just my thoughts. Again, that is from Rob. Should I keep going or do you want to talk about that one? All right, let’s go. This next one is from Chris Shelgren and Chris says, I’m from Chagrin Falls and I lived in Chicago in Wilmette in the Northern suburbs for 26 or so years. I think this sentiment is felt by nearly every Browns fan. I absolutely hate the idea of the Browns moving to Brook Park or anywhere off the lakefront. Why do I love the Browns? Two generations of family members raised me as a Browns fan.

Terry Pluto (33:31.278)

Now I’ll read the next one.

David Campbell (33:55.726)

players, the colors, and that love of being play playing out on the lakefront for what 80 years? It’s tradition and tradition like the Browns, Bears, Steelers, Packers, and few other teams is very powerful. It’s an incredibly strong emotional connection. Imagine the Packers moving and playing in a shiny new dome. Unfathomable barf. For the Brownies in the stadium on the lake, it’s the pound. It’s the dirt Bernie drew up plays in.

Terry Pluto (34:16.235)

Thanks listening.

David Campbell (34:21.55)

It’s the nail for a shirt hook. It’s the Muni lot and it is the weather for God’s sake. I recall a game when it started to snow and the fans erupted in cheers. It’s the grit of playing outdoor football, which every Cleveland kid took part in as a kid. It’s the walk and the corresponding chance down the hill before and after the game. It’s the opposite of LA and we like it that way. All is immediately lost when they play in a plastic new stadium. The Ricketts family in Chicago read the Wrigley field and modernize the facilities, but from the fans per

It’s still the same old Wrigley Field with necessary improvements Move Wrigley Field out of Wrigleyville and I’m not so sure the Cubs have much appeal at all a change like that would absolutely break the hearts of thousands of loyal Cubs fans Just like this move will for loyal Browns fans all the best Chris

Okay, Terry. So we heard two letters there from fans who are kind of in favor of staying on the lakefront and just to reset things real quickly. The Browns have said that recently they put out a statement that they are going to turn their intentions to building the facility in Brook Park. It doesn’t mean it’s going to happen. If they wanted to go ahead and announce that they’re going to pay for the whole thing, they can build it wherever they want, right? And do whatever they want. But since there’s tax money involved, there’s a lot of

Terry Pluto (36:15.159)

Exactly.

David Campbell (36:17.562)

complications and at this point the Brook Park facility does not exist in any way shape or form. So there we go, that’s its foundation.

Terry Pluto (36:21.534)

Right and nor nor have they bought land in Brook Park. They have bought a What is it the intention to buy whatever that is basic option to buy yeah much different to buying the land. Okay, First of all the negotiation in fact, it’s kind of why I stopped writing about this Negotiations back and forth. We’re gonna sue everybody’s suing each other. This is what they do, you know

David Campbell (36:31.243)

Options. Yep.

Terry Pluto (36:50.582)

Of course you would want the owners and everything to pay for everything. And maybe they should, but they won’t. It’s just simple. They won’t. Do you know when Art Modell moved to Baltimore, they gave him the stadium and they gave him parts of the concessions and everything else. the fact actually that of recent vintage, the, teams have been paying for like half of the bills on these stadiums.

New this is hard for fans to believe but it’s new that’s more than they used to pay and so that’s where the Haslunds are coming from. This is a fact. This is it now you live in Cleveland Cleveland is different than Chicago or other markets and You say we can’t afford that and so that’s what me goes back and forth

I find it interesting though that people that want to play out in the snow are not living in Rode in, just threw that in, just threw that in there.

David Campbell (37:49.936)

That’s true.

Terry Pluto (37:58.082)

Your thoughts, David.

David Campbell (38:00.154)

Well, there’s, again, there’s two ways this can go. There can be an indoor stadium or there can be an outdoor stadium, right? If you build an outdoor stadium on the lake, it’s gonna deteriorate. You’re gonna use it 10 or 12 times a year. And if there’s tax money involved, there is an argument to be made that that is a colossal waste of tax money. Like that just is a fact. That’s not really my opinion, it just is.

Terry Pluto (38:20.878)

and a waste of lakefront property that could be used for other things. I am in that group of wanting Cleveland to finally develop one of its greatest resources, which is all that lakefront property. You know, now the whole thing is, well, build a dome. I like this one. Build a dome on Burke Lakefront Airport.

so much for you having to whirling snow off of the lake. Yeah.

David Campbell (38:51.438)

Yeah. So, so the, if there’s going to be an indoor facility built, then you lose the romanticism of the snow and the weather on the lakefront, but you get to host Taylor Swift concerts and Superbowls. And I mean, not immediately, but like, you all it opens up all kinds of possibilities, which, which helps the region and helps the economy. And it’s so that those are kind of the two.

Terry Pluto (39:08.718)

conventions and things like that, yeah.

David Campbell (39:18.928)

Do you want to have a place on the lakefront and have outdoor football 10 times a year and maybe Ohio State plays here once every five or 10 years?

Terry Pluto (39:26.55)

And also use that land for just that as opposed to something else. And some people, well, it just be a park. Excuse me? What is wrong with a lakefront park? Where you can go nine months out of the year, say. As somebody, Roberta and I go to different places in Lake Erie. And we go, I would say, know, starting in April or May, and we’ll probably go out one more time or two more times this year.

because there’s different beaches and things like that just to be there by the lake. So I love it. But the argument that the owners should pay for it is correct. But the reality is they’re not. They’re just not. Then it’s a question of what do you want to do about it? Who’s going to pay? All that kind of stuff. And really, if you line up.

David Campbell (40:10.736)

That’s not the market.

Terry Pluto (40:24.03)

What is the most valuable thing to a city? The arena, baseball or football? How would you rank them, David?

David Campbell (40:33.86)

Baseball arena. Well, probably arena, baseball, football because the arena could be used for other stuff. Yes.

Terry Pluto (40:37.88)

Correct, by far. They have over 200 events in the arena.

Now granted, you don’t get say 30 some thousand like they did for some playoff games or whatever. But that’s, I mean, right away between the calves and the monsters, I think you’re almost at a hundred dates there. You know, you might 80 or 90 right there and they’re always having something at the arena. And then you have the baseball that’s 81 home dates. And then you, and football is what it is, but football is the national religion. Not only here, but many other places.

So it’s just they’re gonna just fight it out.

David Campbell (41:17.008)

Yeah, well, one thing we know for sure is this is going to take a long time to resolve and nothing is.

Terry Pluto (41:20.302)

Yeah, and the lawyers are going to make a lot of money before it’s over.

David Campbell (41:24.57)

They will. mean, you know, the Browns put out a statement earlier this fall saying that Berkeley Lakefront Airport is not a viable option. And this week destination Cleveland illustrations came out showing a dome stadium on Berkeley airport. like, which way is up at this point? Nobody really knows. And it’s going to take a lot of negotiating and a lot of time.

Terry Pluto (41:40.814)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And that’s why I kind of let it go there because it’s just all this political and fighting and people have different agendas. but I’m just simply saying, and I wrote the last column I did, I laid out the last, I think four facilities or whatever. And the minimum that public dollars was 50%. And in some places it was even more. That’s, that’s what they’re doing.

David Campbell (42:10.53)

All right, well, we will be following this story as it goes along. Before we move to the Cavs, Terry, there’s this meme on social media of Abe Simpson from the Simpsons yelling at a cloud. I’m going to yell at a cloud for a minute. So you’re a football coach and your team is winning by six points, let’s say. And it’s the last play of the game. And as the last play of the game, you’ve been offered this arrangement, Terry. We’re going to have everybody line up in the end zone.

Terry Pluto (42:21.216)

Yes.

David Campbell (42:37.757)

your defensive end zone, even though you have the lead by six points, and we’re going to drop a ball from a crane a hundred feet up in the air and whoever gets the ball wins the game. Would you take that deal if you had a six point lead?

Terry Pluto (42:50.83)

Why? Why? Yeah.

David Campbell (42:50.952)

Definitely not. You basically turned the game into a 50-50 proposition. So why is it? This Bears-Commanders game Sunday, why would you let that happen? You basically turned your lead into a 50-50 drop a ball from a crane proposition. It makes me crazy. This is Abe Simpson, all right? The object of a Hail Mary pass, if you’re the defensive team, is to not let the ball be thrown.

Terry Pluto (42:57.73)

Yes.

Terry Pluto (43:19.448)

Correct.

David Campbell (43:19.62)

That is your goal. If you need to rush five, six, even seven guys, if you blitz and send somebody from the quarterback’s roll outside, the ball will not be thrown. We’ve seen the Detroit Lions do that before where they don’t even let the ball be thrown. And that’s why they’re a good team. And instead, the Bears let this pass. They’ve got a guy, one of their cornerbacks is in the corner of the end zone taunting the fans as the play is being run. So.

Terry Pluto (43:43.918)

Well, you grew up with that team, you explain it.

David Campbell (43:48.904)

I can’t. But anyway, just like football, anytime you see a football game, anything from, you know, Pee-Wees up to the NFL, like if they have a Hail Mary pass, don’t let them make the pass. Do whatever you have to do to not let that happen. It’s not that hard, but these guys, well, you know, we have a plan. We want to box guys out in the end zone. No, just don’t let the ball go up. It’s very easy. But anyway, that’s my yelling at the cloud moment for the podcast today. I would just love to see every team adopt that.

philosophy of let’s just not let the throw happen.

Terry Pluto (44:20.046)

It’s sort of like yelling at the cloud, let’s make Jimmy Haslund pay for everything.

David Campbell (44:23.984)

There you go. All right, let’s. That’s right, they never do.

Terry Pluto (44:26.548)

And if only the clouds would listen.

No, it is you could go outside today and say, although today looks like a pretty nice day here, but say I want snow.

David Campbell (44:40.934)

It will not be happening.

Terry Pluto (44:42.258)

Even if Dick Goddard, you could go to the Dick Goddard floating on his weather cloud up there and start screaming about snow. And even Dick Goddard would say, I can tell you if the chances are it will snow, I can’t make it snow.

David Campbell (44:58.32)

All right, well that’s my emotional moment here. So, hey, let’s move on to the Cavs, Terry. 4-0, one of the few undefeated teams left in the NBA. And everybody was very interested to see this game on Tuesday night. We’re taping this on Wednesday afternoon in the Garden. I gotta ask you sometime why Madison Square Garden is called the Mecca of basketball. I don’t understand that. When’s the last time a championship was won there? Why is it the Mecca? It’s 50 years of terrible basketball. Anyway.

Terry Pluto (45:05.293)

Mm-hmm.

Terry Pluto (45:18.444)

Because it’s in New York and nothing else matters.

Terry Pluto (45:24.054)

It doesn’t matter, it’s in New York, nothing else matters. Don’t you understand it’s in New York and nothing else matters?

David Campbell (45:27.952)

So what did you think of the calves last night? think people want to see it.

Terry Pluto (45:31.918)

Cause Donovan Mitchell we all know is going to New York cause nothing else matters. I mean, we’ve been drilled into it. Those of us in the Midwest and elsewhere, or they certainly would want to play in LA.

David Campbell (45:35.344)

That’s right.

David Campbell (45:40.868)

Yeah.

David Campbell (45:45.165)

Alright, so what did you think of the calves last night, Terry? And what have you been seeing so far? There’s some good things happening.

Terry Pluto (45:47.31)

I was impressed by a couple of things. Well, first of all, I wanted to check the rebounding. Remember how the Knicks out-rebounding between 8 and 12 a game in those playoffs. The Knicks had a 43-41 advantage on the board. So basically, it was the same. And you remember how Jared Allen had a tough time against the Knicks. Jared, 15 points, 15 rebounds. Now,

The Knicks are not the same physical team they were before. They’ve made some changes. They’ve traded some of their guys. And I just don’t think there is tough physically. And Carl Anthony Towns, who they trade a bunch of guys for, he had 13 points and 10 rebounds. In other words, Allen kicked his butt.

Interesting thing, this, and this is something that I did not see J.B. Bickerstaff do.

Kenny Atkinson put Dean Wade on Jalen Brunson much of the time. A taller guy, Brunson, eight for 24 shooting.

David Campbell (46:52.72)

You don’t see that very often.

Terry Pluto (46:53.922)

No. in some ways Atkinson is channeling his early JV Bickerstaff and falling in love with a big lineup with now we’ll see when Struz comes back the small forward, but he’s starting Dean Wade with Mobley and with Allen flying in the face of you can’t play two. He’s playing three. Now we’ll see how this goes, but in the meantime,

I see the defense, they held the next to 44 % shooting.

Josh Hart’s unbelievable. The guy has 13 rebounds from the guard position. I mean, he’s he’s just incredible. But I looked at the rest of this and I thought, good, they look tougher to me. Another nice thing in the first four games is they’re not relying on Donovan Mitchell to carry the huge load. You know, different players have had it. I mean, Donovan had a quiet 25. He was nine to 17 shooting. You know, it was of all people. And I mean that because I’ve been kind of down on him. Darius Garland.

who had terrible times against the Knicks in the past was 12 for 19 with 34 points. And I think he had 15 in the fourth quarter. So in other words, I think the Knicks are not quite the Knicks of old, but nonetheless, anytime you play a Tom Thibodeau team, they’re gonna make it hard on you. And they were down by believe 13 in the middle of the third quarter and came back and kind of won it going away. Very positive.

David Campbell (48:31.108)

Yeah, and a couple of things that were interesting to me, Terry, we heard before the season about Kenny Atkinson wanting to expand the rotation from what it’s been here and 10 guys played last night, even with Struz not in the lineup. The lowest was Ty Jerome with 641 and Okoro played 910. Everybody else was over 14. And so I was curious. Evan Mobley, 35 minutes, 48 seconds.

Terry Pluto (48:38.797)

Mm-hmm.

Terry Pluto (48:52.844)

Who was the most? Who played the most?

David Campbell (48:59.552)

And so that kind of brings me to my second point. Donovan Mitchell is averaging 30 minutes a game so far in four games.

Terry Pluto (49:05.944)

They would love that. That’s what they want to keep it under 32, I was told.

David Campbell (49:11.024)

So that is by far the lowest of his NBA career. I was looking back what he did at Utah, 33.4, 33.7, 34.3, 33.4, 33.8, 35.8 in his first season in Cleveland, 35.3 last year and so far in four games, 30 this season, which I thought was really telling.

Terry Pluto (49:14.679)

yeah.

Terry Pluto (49:29.858)

They’re trying to make that make that 32 be kind of the stone barrier unless it’s a, you know, big games or sort of, but that’s what they really want. And you got to remember once while you run into an overtime game and that adds kind of five minutes to everything, but you’re correct. That was a really good thing that you spotted. And on top of that, he’s not just had to score a ton. Cause even if you’re out there for 32, but nobody’s doing anything, I mean, that’ll wear you down. And so.

They want to do that. He’s developing his first two subs, tend to be Laverton and Merrill, and he’s running these different guys in there. But I, you know, I am a big defensive guy. So I was watching this with Dean Wade and becoming very, very enthusiastic about it because I just think it makes the Cavs a tougher team.

David Campbell (50:24.108)

And you know Brunson’s game, loves to get in the lane and do those little leaners and little fadeaways and just kind of work a guard down in that lane. And you can’t really do that against Dean Wade with his length.

Terry Pluto (50:26.529)

Yeah.

Terry Pluto (50:35.85)

No. And Dean Wade also has a big thing is how do you move laterally, you know, side to side. And he’s got the good feet for that. I was, cause I w if we’d had done this the other day, I would say I’ve been sort of disappointed by the Cavs defense and some of those other games. And maybe it’s just cause they were playing, they were the superior team and playing some of these

younger teens are just running up and down and jacking up shots. And, that could develop a lot of bad habits. You know, they’re laying 128 to 130 some on a couple of these teams, but in this game, they were ready to play defense. so, is, you know, the, the whole now he’s JB gone. took his key assistance with him. So this is a, you know, now Kenny Atkinson kept talking about.

wanting his two big guys together and that so I’m I’m really enthused with what I see Jared Allen just gets better and better every year He really does since he’s been here Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he is and Mowgli, you know some days He’s able to get to the rim and do a lot of his stuff and other days are taking it away from him But it’s opening up. I think the Knicks did that but Garland was open all the time

David Campbell (51:41.004)

and a great attitude, a great teammate, and yeah, a lot of good things.

Terry Pluto (51:58.71)

And Garland got hot and Garland is physically stronger. You could see that.

David Campbell (52:04.538)

So Terry, Chris Feodor had a really nice game story of the win last night. And he wrote about after, I think it was his follow-up today actually, about how Donovan ran over to Darius after the game. And then Donovan was talking about like all these people who criticized Darius, know, like this is, you know, what were you talking about? Like he kind of called people out basically. So people calling out Darius Garland last year was totally legit. And even Darius Garland admitted it.

Terry Pluto (52:12.832)

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Terry Pluto (52:27.342)

Sure.

Terry Pluto (52:32.652)

Yes, it was.

David Campbell (52:34.956)

So the we’ve talked frequently about whether you think this Mitchell Garland backcourt can work. Are you seeing it work so far through four games? Do you think this is a sustainable pairing back there the way it looks right now?

Terry Pluto (52:48.31)

Well, he looks better now, but we’ve got to see a lot more. What I do like and is…

Donovan Mitchell is like the coach and I can’t remember who told me this it might have been Mike Holmgren of all people But we’ll just say out there who said, know, I handle quarterbacks and I said how he said he’s my guy until he’s not In other words, he’s Mike and I’m not saying much anything bad about him. Anybody asked me about changes whatever he’s my guy Because I need him. I need him know that I’m behind him and maybe he’ll turn it around

But one day I may have to go in and then he’s not my guy. But as long as he’s my guy, I’m not going to give any indication that he’s not. And it’s a good way in life and everything else in the business world. know, and Donovan is Donovan is really smart. And he knows for Darius to play as well as he can. Darius has to believe that Donovan believes you’re my guy. Darius remember last year, there was a game where he just was like,

giving a pep talks and one of those Orlando games. You can do, you can hear him. You can do it. This is your game. You got it, bro. You got, I mean, he’s doing that. This is why I love Donovan too. He sees the bigger picture. And so yeah, he’s gonna, so he’s going to say, you know, bro, it’s you and me against the world here, Darius. I got your back. The other guys, we all got your back. So cool. Go for it. Whatever works. All I know is he’s playing a heck of a lot better than last year and he’s healthy so far. And, but

I’m not going to go all in that, this is the thing that’s going to necessarily take him the championship. Now, Kenny Atkinson sold himself partly to Kenny. If you haven’t read my interview with Kobe Altman, please do. He sat down with me for quite a while and laid out why they came back basically with everybody. And Atkinson was part of it. He came in with all these detailed plans for individual players and matchups.

Terry Pluto (54:51.118)

My guess is that even the substitution patterns are seen early. He probably laid out in the summer with Kobe. So they have a new plan and we’ll see how it works. But so far, by the way, I do sense it’s been an easy schedule, but Kenny looks pretty calm and composed over there. he kind of knows what he it’s like he’s been a head coach before. Yeah, he’s been. Yeah. And that’s important. You can’t have a team like this and have a training wheel coach.

David Campbell (55:13.774)

He’s been around. Yeah.

David Campbell (55:21.616)

I wanted to go back to what you were saying about Mitchell and Garland a few minutes ago. It’s kind of like Mitchell is Garland’s hype man. It reminded me of the old Mark Jackson that he used to do with Reggie Miller back at the Mecca of basketball in New York when they would play the Nicks, the Pacers-Nicks drag out playoff series where you’ve got a guy that you’re just shouting in his ear all the time, but like quiet shouting, like, you got this, you you’re the man, they can’t stop you. Like that kind of thing.

Terry Pluto (55:24.365)

Yeah.

Terry Pluto (55:28.118)

Mm-hmm.

Terry Pluto (55:35.724)

Yeah. Yeah, there you are.

David Campbell (55:51.576)

It seems like maybe that kind of relationship, which is pretty fun to watch.

Terry Pluto (55:54.562)

Well, it’s because Donovan sees things other than from his own glasses. He takes them off and looks around and sees that Darius is a good kid who’s working hard, who’s been through a lot. He has made an all-star team. He’s got ability. And on another team, frankly, with a bigger backcourt, he might be even better. You don’t want to go down there, but if he was playing next to something, if you’re playing next to even Max Struist.

together. Now my thing and the stats show it, streus and Mitchell as a dynamite backcourt. But this is what you got right now. And this is a plan to find out how good it can be. So I’d rather see this than Darius went out and went five for 14 against the Knicks and the Cavs got crushed on the boards. I remember they had, they were setting picks in a way to get

Darius on Brunson the Knicks were and it didn’t work this time and Brunson would back him down It reminded me like when I was on the JV’s at Benedictine and we would you know face these like Baron and the varsity would come, you know, this is before the football players came and you know, so I’m on some six-four kid I got no chance he’s gonna back me down and just you know Stick his butt into me and make a way up and that’s it and that’s about what Brunson did there

David Campbell (57:02.397)

Ha

Terry Pluto (57:21.098)

It’s not a, know, these guys that are really great players, they, you know, they’re like, they are sharks and they smell blood and they love to get the matchup they want. So he didn’t want that matchup with Dean Wade. So I was surprised watching. I’m going, wonder why JB didn’t do this. Now, I think in one of those series, Wade might’ve been hurt, but I’d have to go back and look, but I’m like, wow, that was really smart Kenny.

David Campbell (57:42.789)

Yeah.

David Campbell (57:49.924)

Yeah, Dean Wade is an unusual type of player and he’s had so many health problems. think if he can stay on the court, he’s going to solve a lot of problems for the cat.

Terry Pluto (57:52.279)

Yeah.

Now he couldn’t make a shot last night to save his life but nonetheless what he did with Brunson was extremely valuable and I think it bothered Brunson. got him off his game.

David Campbell (58:07.15)

Yeah, think Teen Wade was minus 14 last night, like when you’ve got the other guys who are hugely plus, life’s good.

Terry Pluto (58:09.748)

Yeah, I know.

Terry Pluto (58:15.286)

Yeah, I saw that and sometimes that usually he’s Mr. Plus, you know, he usually comes in big with that number, but I could tell the watching it that Brunson was frustrated by this. And then he started just missing shots. You know that that happens too.

David Campbell (58:30.16)

All right, well, the Cavs even have admitted that they had a pretty easy start to the season with the first three games, and now they know they’re entering a little bit tougher stretch. They’ve got the Lakers at the field house on Wednesday night, and it looks like LeBron and Brownie are going to be playing. We can talk about that more in a second, Terry, but then after that, it’s Friday versus Orlando in a playoff rematch. And then the Cavs have back to backs against Milwaukee on Saturday at Milwaukee and Monday back at the field house against the Bucks. So what do you think about this LeBron, Brownie?

Terry Pluto (58:46.446)

you

Terry Pluto (58:58.35)

Uhhh

David Campbell (58:58.714)

playing together thing, coming back home. And LeBron has talked about this this week about how important and how meaningful it is that they’re going to be able to take the court at the field house. All right, go ahead.

Terry Pluto (59:06.029)

Okay.

All right, fine. You know, I was like of the camp of let Bronnie go play at Duquesne for little Drew Joyce, you know, the head coach there, because he needs to play. For all this other stuff, the bottom line is Bronnie had a cardiac problem, a heart problem. He averaged five points at USC and struggled. He did nothing to qualify to be drafted other than it was.

LeBron’s son and LeBron was pushing for him. in time, Bronnie playing regular could maybe develop into a pro player. But nothing the previous year between the heart problem and his struggles at USC set him up to be drafted other than the Lakers wanted to make sure that they did this to bring LeBron here. All you got to do is ask the Lakers if you didn’t have LeBron on your team, are you drafting Bronnie? The answer is no.

Now, okay, they’ve done a couple of these little things. Bronnie needs to play a lot in the G League and find out what kind of player he is. And when you see him, he’s actually pretty smart player. He works hard on defense, but he’s not in any way, only does he lack the size of LeBron, he’s not anywhere near the athlete, you know, the runner jumper, all that. I just think it’s a tough spot for the kid. And,

Tough spot for the coach. Yeah.

David Campbell (01:00:35.982)

Yeah, you’re right on. You’re right on Terry. so this is, this is what is happening. This was important to LeBron. And so therefore it’s important to the Lakers to make it happen. And we saw during the draft last year, I think the clutch sports people told the NBA, the Lakers are taking him in the second round. Don’t take him or he will not show up. He will, he’ll be playing in Europe. And so they made this happen so that LeBron and Brownie could play together. became.

Terry Pluto (01:00:53.698)

Yeah, the rest of them not show up exactly. Yeah, that’s it. Yeah.

David Campbell (01:01:01.454)

the first NBA father son duo. And now they’re going to do it here in Cleveland, which is meaningful to LeBron and Brownie. And then you’re right. Yeah. And then he’ll go to the G league and begin his pro career. So.

Terry Pluto (01:01:07.298)

And what are they putting in? It plays like three or five minutes and then that’s it.

They’re right. Then that will be it. so, the nice thing, unless I’ve heard, not heard anything, what I’ve seen a Bronte, he seems to have his head together. There’s no big bad stories or anything out there. And a lot of times when you are the son of a superstar trying to play basketball, that can go real sideways. So all that’s good. And it seems like LeBron and Savannah have done a good job with him and their other kids.

Savannah being LeBron’s wife. She went to Bookdall, by the way, in Akron, you know, course, LeBron went to St. V. So there you go.

David Campbell (01:01:51.672)

Yeah, it is tough. remember, I think it was the year that Dan Marino got inducted into the hall of fame. You know, they have interviews up in the booth during the hall of fame game and his son was with him, I think. And they were interviewing his son and they asked his son like, so what do you do? And he’s like, I’m a filmmaker. So like he went completely not into sports and I think we see that sometimes where kids don’t necessarily want to follow in the footsteps of a great

Terry Pluto (01:01:58.178)

Mm-hmm.

Terry Pluto (01:02:09.218)

Yeah.

David Campbell (01:02:20.432)

a parent who’s great at something like that because it’s so hard.

Terry Pluto (01:02:21.536)

I know Michael Jordan’s kids, didn’t they go down to Southern Florida or Central Florida and they just weren’t that good. It’s nobody’s fault, it’s just how it is. And also the other thing that sometimes comes into play is like LeBron coming from where he came from or some others, they are so driven because they have had nothing coming up.

David Campbell (01:02:27.269)

Mm-hmm.

Terry Pluto (01:02:50.13)

LeBron came from the projects in Akron and lived different places than that. Now he was helped a lot by the Drew Joyce family and Keith Danbrot and some other families too along the way. he was driven to make the NBA be great and really take care of his mom and some of these other people.

David Campbell (01:03:15.888)

And we’ve seen that for a century, Terry, like people who, know, like Ty Cobb and people playing San La baseball, like baseball was all they wanted to do. And that’s how they, they, they changed their life. Yeah.

Terry Pluto (01:03:20.001)

Yeah.

Terry Pluto (01:03:23.616)

Yeah, and it’s right great. Well, but where I’m going when you’re bronny james or you’re michael jordan jr or whatever You didn’t grow up like that at all So that’s why sometimes they go and become a filmmaker because it’s like I don’t even want to try that I want to go cut, know make my own road. So It’s an interesting psychological

David Campbell (01:03:43.938)

And it also helps when you’re 6′8 like LeBron too, which Bronnie is not.

Terry Pluto (01:03:48.138)

It no I said I’m trying to say it’s not his fault. I mean, this is a genetic thing We used to talk about and I still do early on when I was a baseball writer and it’s It might be another Earl Weaver store. I don’t even know but you say, know, some of these guys make it in spite of themselves they’re so genetically gifted and They just put in minimal effort and they get the biggest but they don’t become the superstar. They don’t become the dominant

David Campbell (01:03:51.438)

Yeah.

David Campbell (01:04:19.248)

Takes both, the natural ability and the drive, you’re right.

Terry Pluto (01:04:20.3)

Yep. mean, the drive for LeBron to be so great, is this his 20th year, I believe? 24th? It’s unfathomable. It’s never been done. There’s a reason it’s never been done. It’s nearly impossible to do. And it is well beyond genetics now.

David Campbell (01:04:28.048)

21st.

David Campbell (01:04:41.392)

Yeah, and if you look what kind of shape he’s in at the age he is right now, that’s…

Terry Pluto (01:04:43.264)

Yeah, and he and he’s always was a smart player and it wasn’t just because he was smart. He studied the game. I remember When lebron sophomore year, I was pretty good friends with keith dambrot And so he gave me like total access to practices halftime. This is before the whole big thing hit with lebron and I saw a couple times lebron and dambrot are on the whiteboard and there’s kind of other players and they’re

They’re going through offenses and stuff. And I’m watching this kids like 15. I’m going, holy and he goes, you know, that’s a good idea with Ron and they were like creating inbounds plays. And I’m like, holy cow. This is really special. And I’ll tell you along those same lines. John Dorsey told me when he was at Kansas city and they brought in Patrick Mahomes, you know, Mahomes, athleticism at where do you play? Texas tech just jumped off the screen.

And you interviewed this, but he goes, we put him on the board with Andy Reed. And we said, my, something special. It was like, probably like when Belichick met Brady, this is like these two guys got together and Andy Reed’s like, we got to get him. And Dorsey’s watching us go, we got to get him. We got to get him.

David Campbell (01:06:08.28)

And they did, they moved up and got them.

Terry Pluto (01:06:08.962)

And they did. That was the thing though. The whiteboard there was the fight because they had to move up to draft to get him was the thing that convinced them that well beyond the athleticism and that was this guy’s intelligence and his craving to learn. So.

David Campbell (01:06:26.192)

All right, well, LeBron, Bronnie, and the rest of the Lakers will be at the Fieldhouse on Wednesday night. That should be a memorable night for them and for all the fans who are there. So, Terry, we got two really good guardians emails. One is from Gary Hunt from Westerville, Ohio, and he’s done a breakdown of market size. And I’m going to save that for next week because I want to devote some time to that. But we have another one, Neil from Akron’s A Long Time Podcast Listener, and he actually sent this in.

Terry Pluto (01:06:44.482)

Say that, yeah, I saw that.

David Campbell (01:06:52.644)

before the ALCS, but the spirit of the email is kind of what’s important. So I wanted to read it and then get your thoughts on it. Neil says, Hey guys, the Lane Thomas Grand Slam should go down as one of the all time greatest moments in Cleveland baseball October history. In your mind, Terry, where does that moment rank? I’m not sure it’s better than Rajai Davis in game seven in the 2016 World Series, but that entire moment. Scooble, Mr. I haven’t given a run since September 18th.

Terry Pluto (01:07:18.498)

Yeah.

David Campbell (01:07:19.182)

Base is loaded, tie game, winner moves on and Lane Thomas with one swing of the bat single-handedly forever engraved his name into Guardians fans hearts while simultaneously ripping out the hearts of the entire Detroit Tiger fan base. This is why there’s nothing like October baseball. So like I said, Neil wrote this before the ALCS and then we had John Kenzie Noel’s home run to tie game three and then, and David Fry to win it. So anyway,

Terry Pluto (01:07:33.742)

Mm-hmm.

Terry Pluto (01:07:43.028)

David Fry had a couple of them. Yeah, and you know I’ll tell you one of the most important homers is Tony Pena in that first game against Boston Because I just remember going at 95 going into that whole playoff thing and that was like three in the morning or whatever it was

David Campbell (01:07:48.526)

These are kind of all fresh.

Terry Pluto (01:08:04.334)

Cleveland’s has this great team. think they remember that was the year they played 144 games or they’re like 100 wins and 44 losses or whatever it was. I know they won a hundred and they’re going to lose to the Red Sox in their first round, but it just seemed like Pena hit that one there. And I always thought one of the great moments to me, it wasn’t a home run, but it was that was when Kenny Lofton scored from second base on that pass ball in the kingdom in Seattle when, when they

when they set them up to go the World Series. But Lane Thomas, that’s the kind of stuff, know, Roger Davis off of Aldous Chapman, know, Lane Thomas off of Scoobal, David, I forgot who Big Christmas hit it off of, but he had been like, he hadn’t had a home run for like 70 at bats and, and Vosestum.

big boy, big guy, go grab a bat and hit a two run homer. I’m like, yeah, fat chance of that. And so that was the great thing is he said, October baseball is fun and we could, we could talk about those things. And so even in a series where, okay, you didn’t win the world series or whatever that was that Detroit series was great. And the, and the Yankee series was fascinating.

Get back to October. Let’s make some more memories.

David Campbell (01:09:29.251)

Yeah. All right. Before I forget, we’re going to wrap up here. We invite you to send in your thoughts, questions, emails. try, we have tried to do a lot of listener emails today. You can send anything you have on your mind to sports at cleveland.com. Just put Terry’s talking in the subject line and we will try to get it on next week’s podcast. So, all right, Terry, the Yankees are down three, nothing to the Dodgers and the world series. And so baseball season is kind of winding down. So I thought we would make this our last foul ball story. We’ll move on.

Terry Pluto (01:09:56.972)

Yeah.

David Campbell (01:09:57.74)

We’ve gotten through almost all of them, now that baseball’s ending, this will be it. So this one comes from Wayne Roche and Wayne lives in Milan, Ohio. And here’s his foul ball story. He says, I love your podcast. Thanks. I look forward to listening to it each week. My foul ball story starts in the eighties. My friend Joe, a Tigers fan, and I went to a Tigers Indians game at municipal stadium. We were sitting in the upper deck just to the third base side of home plate. Junior Noboa hits a foul ball about two rows.

Terry Pluto (01:10:25.698)

Sugar in the bowl, wow.

David Campbell (01:10:27.662)

directly behind us. The fans that were sitting there had just left to get something to eat. I was able to get the ball because there was no one else around us. Fast forward a few years later, Bob Feller was at Discount Drug Mart signing autographs in Sandusky. My dad was a huge Cleveland fan. Yeah, isn’t that something? My dad was a huge Cleveland fan and Bob Feller was his favorite player. I had Bob sign the ball and gave it to my dad.

Terry Pluto (01:10:34.2)

Ha ha ha ha!

Terry Pluto (01:10:42.572)

He was in Sadusky Discount Drug Bar.

You

David Campbell (01:10:54.254)

My dad attended many games in his life going with his father, myself, and siblings and with his grandchildren. In all the games he attended, he was never able to get a foul ball. I was more than happy to give him the ball with Feller’s autograph. I also got my dad a brick paver for the Bob Feller statue. Sadly, in 2001, my dad passed away. The ball was in the casket with him. Also in his right hand was four tickets for that night’s game, a game that he and I were supposed to attend.

Terry Pluto (01:11:16.106)

cool.

Terry Pluto (01:11:21.698)

David Campbell (01:11:22.274)

And his left hand was his Cleveland Indians ball cap instead of music playing in the background we had the Indians game on. I have so many great memories of going to the ballpark with my dad and all the conversations we had traveling to and from the game. Thank you for asking for the follow ball stories. I’ve enjoyed listening to everybody’s story. Keep up the great work you do, Terry. I love your books, especially the guy with the sign. Again, that’s from Wayne Roche and Wayne lives in Mile in Ohio.

Terry Pluto (01:11:46.034)

All right, you’re the boss, so you have the right to veto this. But I wanna hear from people who have had relatives that they buried with some sort of sports item, like he mentioned the foul ball or gang tickets. My father was buried with a copy of the Curse of Rocky Calovito, and he also had on a tribe hat.

David Campbell (01:11:50.946)

Okay.

David Campbell (01:12:01.904)

All right.

Terry Pluto (01:12:14.362)

And he loved this tribe jacket all the time. that and sweatpants, cause I know he hated wearing a suit. So the last thing we were going to do is send them up to the Lord wearing a suit. used to call the suit when, when he later in his life, when he moved up to management at all Fisher Fazio’s, he used to say, they make me wear a tie and a monkey suit. And he would just, yeah, he would.

David Campbell (01:12:35.216)

The old monkey soup.

Terry Pluto (01:12:38.136)

take the tie with him, put it on right as he’s walking in the building and the minute he walked out of the building, he ripped the tie off. cause I remember the undertow, you’re not gonna marry him in a suit. No, it’s the last thing we’re gonna do. So, all right, we wanna hear it.

David Campbell (01:12:53.572)

I’m all for it. think that kind of reveals what a person was all about when you hear stories like that and it kind of captures the essence of who somebody was. yeah, hit us with those at sports at cleveland.com and put Terry’s Talking in the subject line and we’ll start reading some of those. It’ll be really, really good. So, all right, I think we’re done here, right?

Terry Pluto (01:13:13.998)

You absolutely are.

David Campbell (01:13:15.552)

Alright, hey, again, don’t forget Terry’s newsletter. You can sign up for that. comes out every Wednesday. Go to Cleveland.com slash Pluto. Go to the blue bar at the top. You can find all of Terry’s stuff there and you can sign up for his newsletter by clicking on that blue bar. We’ll catch you next week. Lots of great sports stuff to talk about and we’ll see you then on Terry’s Talkin’.