CLEVELAND, Ohio — In this episode of the Wine and Gold Talk podcast, Ethan Sands Chris Fedor discuss the Cavs’ training camp in Florida, exploring the team’s dynamics, coaching changes, and player developments. They delve into the significance of team bonding in a new environment, and hone in on the coaching style of Kenny Atkinson.
Takeaways:
- Kenny Atkinson’s coaching style emphasizes explanation and analytics.
- Evan Mobley has made noticeable improvements in his shooting mechanics.
- Isaac Okoro’s defensive skills are highly regarded despite low counting stats.
- Jaylon Tyson has the potential to exceed the impact of Caleb Martin and Josh Hart.
- The team is not in a win-now mode but is looking for organic growth.
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Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.
Ethan Sands
What up, Cavs Nation? I’m your host, Ethan Sands, and I’m back with another episode of the Wine and Gold Talk Podcast. Joining me from the Sunshine State, Chris Fedor, Cleveland.com beat reporter, the man, the myth, the legend, the one that everybody wants to know when it comes to the Cavs information. Chris, how you doing? I know you are wrapping up just…
a couple days left in your trip in Florida. How are you enjoying yourself?
Chris Fedor
It’s been a lot of fun. It rained today. That was different. It had been so hot for the last couple of days and then today’s rain kind of caught a lot of people by surprise, including me, but I’ve enjoyed it. It’s a new city that I’m getting to visit. I don’t know when I’m going to be here again unless the Cavs continue to bring training camp back here. So I was able to explore downtown Sarasota a little bit last night, had a nice dinner, listened to some live music.
Earlier today, I went for a long walk to Siesta Key, which was about an hour. So Siesta Key is a little bit different these days, obviously, after the hurricane damage. And then I went to a thing called Lido Beach, if I’m mispronouncing it, I’m so sorry to the people of Sarasota and Tampa and Bradenton and all over here. But I walked to there as well. And that was a little bit different too. There’s like
big sand dunes and it seemed like the beach was closed still as a result of everything that happened because siesta key and lido beach and saint arman’s they’re like this island right on the gulf of mexico very close to sarasota but over this interesting bridge that i had to walk through in order to get there
So I may do that again tomorrow if the weather is nice and if the calves are going to practice late in the afternoon. But I had to get that in early in the morning before it got too hot and before practice started for the calves.
Ethan Sands (02:35.864)
Chris, I know you are our food guy and obviously everybody is wondering how does Chris keep all the pounds off that he gains from just eating all the food that he talks about on our podcast? Well, he’s telling you right now it’s the walking, it’s getting active and being able to just be out and about and exploring. This is very much of an explorer man right here if I have to say so myself, but.
Chris (02:39.686)
Yeah.
Chris (02:58.842)
Yeah.
Ethan Sands (03:00.462)
Chris, this is going to be another rendition of Hey Chris, and we’re gonna get your insight and all your thoughts with questions from our subtexters. But I know that our subtexters, even though they haven’t had the chance to ask this question, wanna know the best meal you had on your trip to Florida.
Chris (03:19.825)
So last night I went to dinner with my buddy Brian Winters from ESPN. I’ve known him for a number of years and he was here in Sarasota just for a day. Had a sit down interview with Donovan Mitchell, took in training camp yesterday. So him and I got together last night. We went to an Italian spot. When Brian and I get together, we tend to eat Italian food. Either our original Joe’s in San Francisco. We’ll go to R2.
in Boston, we’ll go to Massimino’s in Boston. So he’s an Italian guy, I’m an Italian guy. And there was this really, really cool place in downtown Sarasota. And I’m probably going to butcher the name of this one too. So apologies to everybody, including this business. But I think it was called Casa Antica. And the reason why I think it was called that instead of Cassantica.
Which is how it’s spelled actually like it’s a weird spelling. It’s got a capital C then it’s got an A S and then a big a and then N T I C A so like I think it’s supposed to be casa antica and like the the big a in the middle Means like it all blends together instead of cassantica. And I also think it’s called casa antica because it looks like an old house
So you walk into the door and then you go through what looked like an old kitchen and then you turn to the left and then there’s this dining area, which is very, very quaint, like seven tables. And it looks like it’s set up in an old living room in front of what used to be a fireplace with some of the windows that look outside onto the street and outside towards some of the hotels and
towards some of the palm trees and stuff like that. So that meal was fantastic, Ethan. I got chicken marsala. We started off with a little bit of bread and oil, of course, because you have to. So I got chicken marsala and a side of pasta and oil with a whole bunch of cheese sprinkled on top of it. And Brian enjoyed his delicious meal as well. And of course, to make the meal, because this is what I do, I got a
Chris (05:44.037)
big old bottle of San Pellegrino and I dumped it into my wine glass so I could class it up a little bit. The lady, the waitress even said, she said, I’m sorry, we don’t have any little bottles of San Pellegrino. I said, that’s fine. She comes out with this one liter bottle of San Pellegrino just for me. I was like, all right, this is all mine, baby.
Ethan Sands (05:53.911)
I can’t.
Ethan Sands (06:10.422)
can’t stand you. Like this is an ongoing like this is where we fall off right because I would much prefer tap water over over sparkling water. I don’t I don’t I know you have a different opinion it’s fine we can argue to disagree agree to disagree whatever but like you you said okay I’m not gonna get a bottle of wine for the table I’m getting a bottle of sparkling water.
Chris (06:11.915)
Hahaha!
Chris (06:37.529)
And not for Brian either. That wasn’t for him, that was for me.
Ethan Sands (06:41.304)
Brian said, can I get, no. Sorry, you wanna get your own one liter.
Chris (06:43.043)
No.
Ethan Sands (06:47.95)
All right. All right. Well, we’re going to get into some questions from our subtexters. If you don’t know what subtext is, that’s where you can be in this calves community. It’s able to just talk to me, Chris and Jimmy, get insight directly to your phones and it’s free for 14 days. And then if you like it, you stick around and I’m promising you this, promising you this, there’s nobody more tapped into the calves than Chris Fidor. And you’re going to want to be in this group.
when it comes to the season. So this is where we get our questions from subtexters. Here we go. So I’m going to start with the ones about the environment, the overarching views, all of those things, right? So the calves are in Florida. We talked about it. They’re at IMG campus. This subtexter, Evan in Lindhurst says, why Florida? The weather? IMG campus? Just to get away?
Chris, I know we talked about it a little bit and we mentioned the parish trip that kind of led to this, but can you go a little bit more in detail as to why the calves chose this spot?
Chris (07:58.117)
part of the reason why they chose this spot, Ethan, is because IMG Academy has everything that the Cavs could want in terms of a facility. And they have enough resorts in the area where the team could stay and do some team bonding type stuff. And if you look around the NBA, I think either 14 or 16 teams across the league are going out of market.
to hold their training camps because I think there’s a belief that there’s more team bonding that can happen there. That these guys are forced to kind of be around each other and get to know each other and hang out with each other. If they were in the market, yeah, theoretically they could get together and they could watch a New York Mets game with Donovan Mitchell or something like that. But they’d all scatter back to their hotels. And it’s the same thing with the coaching staff. It’s a new coaching staff trying to learn each other.
And I just think the Cavs going to Paris in January saw the value of that trip from a team chemistry, team camaraderie standpoint. And I think they want to continue to enhance that at every turn that they possibly can. So you look at some of these teams that went to Hawaii for training camp, you look at some of these teams that went to the Bahamas for training camp. I think one of the teams is in South Carolina. There might be three in Nashville, I think.
more and more teams are going to do this so that they can have the experiences of being around each other and building team chemistry and camaraderie in just a different kind of way. And I would think, I would think, I don’t know if it’s going to be Sarasota. don’t know if it’s going to be IMG Academy, but I would think that this is something that the Cavs are going to continue to explore because whether it’s the players or it’s coach Kenny Atkinson or it’s members of the front office.
They’ve all talked about the benefit of this trip already. the other night, the guys were hitting golf balls off, off of a dock, a grassy patch of a dock with biodegradable golf balls into a Marina. they’re having a big team dinner at, at one of the places near one of the beaches coming up this weekend. they had a team dinner the other night.
Chris (10:18.585)
right on the water, right by the marina. So all of these different things are like more available to them and they’re more possible in this kind of environment.
Ethan Sands (10:31.886)
I think it’s also really great, not only for the players, right? But Kenny Atkinson has talked about it, even maybe more so for the coaching staff, especially this year being new. It’s not like this is a new team, right? This is 13 of the same guys coming back, add on Jaylen Tyson, and then Amani Bates plus two different two-way contracts. So now it’s like, okay, this is almost an entirely new coaching staff. Who are you? How can we get to know you? And how can we get
familiar with each other that I can trust you not only with my game in our season, but with my future because this isn’t just a team that wants to be good for one year. This is a team that wants to be good for the future and continue to build on whatever happens this season. And Kenny Atkinson talked about it a lot more so about the coaching staff and just how important it is for them. And you mentioned a lot of the fun events that they had going on. Obviously they played football today at practice at training camp.
Chris (11:15.547)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (11:31.746)
getting some work in on that, also got basketball work in, obviously, as well. I just think it’s really good to see how Kenny Atkinson has been able to push these guys to their limits when it comes to practicing and getting them into analytics and telling them the why of what they’re doing at each practice, rather than, okay, we’re gonna push you to your limits and not give you any satisfaction, no fun, no nothing at the end of that as well. I think it’s a good give and take when it comes to that situation.
Chris (12:01.425)
also think there’s this, Ethan. The reality is that the Cavs have outgrown their practice facility in Independence Cleveland Clinic Courts. And there’s a reason why they’re going to have this spacious, beautiful one in downtown Cleveland in the coming years. It’s because, you know, the Cleveland Clinic Courts, when it was built, it was one of the best, but it just hasn’t held up and it’s too crowded.
And there’s just not as much space. The G League guys, the training camp invites would have a different locker room than the regulars. It can get crowded on the court because, you know, sometimes they bump into each other based on where the baskets are set up. So I think a lot of different people inside the organization have said,
Like we have outgrown this particular facility. It doesn’t mean that they don’t have access to the weight room and all that other kinds of stuff, but it’s just smaller than it probably would need to be for training camp, especially when you expand the roster, to 20 players, 21 players, and you expand the coaching staff to all the developmental coaches and the coaches from the charge.
And all the different executives that would want to be on hand to watch the practices. And in the first day of training camp, had Cal coach, Mark Madsen. had somebody from USA basketball today. They have all these different people that they like to invite to these things because training camps, a big deal. And it allows high school coaches, college coaches, whoever they may be, to get a feel for how things are done in the NBA. I just don’t think they have the space.
IMG Academy has all the space that you could want. It’s got the golf course attached. Wanna play some tennis? Go right ahead.
Ethan Sands (14:01.816)
think it’s also funny because you talk about the crampness of the space. There will be times where the cows will try and bring people in or bring coaches in or execs in from around the NBA to Cleveland Clinic courts and they got this row of chairs that they put on the back wall and I’m like, okay, there’s people here today and it looks like they’re jam-packed, the chairs are literally touching each other and I’m like, okay, they don’t have any space, maybe not the…
Chris (14:20.401)
Yeah. Yeah.
Ethan Sands (14:28.46)
best time to talk to them. They might be a little grumpy just because of how close they are to each other. But I mean, it’s just a really good experience for these guys. And obviously the Paris experience that they had also impacted Donovan Mitchell’s decision to come back. He said that he around the same time was figuring out that he was going to want to come back anyway. And I just think that aspect of it, the camaraderie aspect of it is really helping all of the different teammates and also just
building this team up to where they want to be. But the next question from our subtexters comes from Stefan in Parma. And he says, how does a Kenny Atkinson training camp compare with the camps run by JB Bickerstaff? And Chris, I want to know this from you, right? Like you covered JB Bickerstaff for five years. This is Kenny Atkinson’s first couple of days as the official head coach in training camp. What have you noticed?
What have you heard from players and people around the league that’s different this year?
Chris (15:29.403)
Well, this is also different, Ethan, because you’re comparing a coach that had already something established and had been there for multiple years. So he didn’t have to do some of the same things that Kenny Atkinson is doing. You know, in the early days of training camp, one of the things that Kenny and his coaching staff are doing, they’re running through half court sets. They’re running through baseline out of bounds plays. They’re introducing new concepts and a new style.
and some new sets and some new language as well. Like some of that stuff is going to carry over and some of that stuff is going to be the same, but some of it is Kenny Atkinson specific. So he has to do those things at the beginning of training camp in a way that JB Biggerseph didn’t have to do. there hasn’t been as much, according to the players, there hasn’t been as much scrimmaging.
as what they did in Captain Bicker Staff. There’s been more drills. There’s been more getting an understanding of this new system and what principles are going to matter the most. The one thing that is different is that they are playing faster. They are pushing the tempo. And look, this is October. Every team goes into training camp and they say the same thing. We’re going to play faster. We’re going to push the pace.
We’re going to get better offense early in the clock. We’re going to get into our sets quicker. We’re going to get to our spots quicker. Every single team in the NBA at this point, Ethan, they want to play faster and they talk about playing faster. But there are things that the Cavs are doing throughout this training camp that are really pushing them to do that, including yesterday when they shortened the shot clock on purpose so that instead of a 24 second shot clock.
It was 14. It was 10. You know what I’m saying? Like that really pushes you and makes you think a different kind of way and gives you a different feel for the kind of pace that Kenny Atkinson is hoping for. So I think those are the things that really stand out to me. But I think it’s a logical difference between the two coaches because Kenny’s new.
Chris (17:52.805)
Kenny’s trying to instill some different principles and stuff like that. And JB already had those established last year, the year before. You know what I mean?
Ethan Sands (18:03.15)
100%. And I think it’s really interesting to kind of compare the two. And I like the lesser shot clock for Kenny Atkinson’s drill that you were talking about, then you ran because one, we talked to J.B. Barrett’s staff last year and he was obviously doing the windmill, trying to get people up the floor and all those different things. He was like, all right, well, we want to get up the floor within two to three seconds of the shot clock and be able to set something up.
In this scenario with what Kenny Atkinson is doing, it makes the players think not only, okay, are we getting into a set? What is the scenario that they’re doing these drills in? Right? Like you talk about 14 or 10 seconds or whatever. Like, is this late in the game? Is this go get a bucket time? Or is this, okay, we still want to be patient, set something up and figure out how quickly we can run this action for certain players.
Chris (18:41.039)
I don’t know.
Ethan Sands (18:55.628)
I think it’s really interesting just to see how Kenny Atkinson has been building out this team. And also it’s a conditioning thing, right? I don’t know if they’re going to do the beat test or whatever. think that’s something that everybody’s looking forward to asking Max Streus again. But I feel like this is something to also work on their conditioning and get them into the best shape that they want to be in, especially for Kenny Atkinson’s offense.
Chris (19:20.453)
I also get the sense in listening to a lot of these players talk over the last couple of days. Kenny Atkinson is an explainer and he might be an over explainer in some cases where he gives them the why of what they’re doing. So that the players have an understanding of one, how that benefits them, but two, exactly what Kenny is looking for and why he’s looking for different things. know, Isaac Kikoro said earlier today that
Last year they just did things because that’s what the coaches told them to do. But Kenny Atkinson and his staff, they’re explaining why they want to do certain things, why they are doing certain things and why there’s a benefit in them doing certain things. The other thing that Isaac said and Evan Mobley said, and a bunch of other people that I talked to said is that there is more of an emphasis and this is not a surprise. This is one of the things that the Cavs liked about Kenny Atkinson.
It’s one of the reasons why James Borrego was also a finalist and Mike Norrie was getting a long look from the Cavs as well. Every single one of those guys is analytics oriented and they are using analytics to determine certain things. And those analytics are helping the players understand some things as well. Where they came up short last year, where they need to go coming into this year.
So a lot of the stuff that Kenny is going to do, yes, it’s going to be feel. He’s got to use his feel, but he’s very analytics driven and players are understanding better some of the analytics that he’s going to use that are going to matter in his particular system.
Ethan Sands (21:08.27)
Yeah, the analytics are so important. I remember going through the transcript of when he was talking about what was going on with just everything based on what they had going on in training camp. And it was just like, well, these are the different platforms that we’re using. And I remember going through the transcript and I was like, I got to look these things up to make sure not only I’m spelling them right, but like, how are they using these? Why are they important? And why is this an explainer?
as being able to benefit not only the players, but also just what’s going on around the court during every aspect of the practices. But the next question from our subtexters comes from Matt in Los Angeles. And we’ve been talking about running and we’re talking about transition. This is a little bit different of that question. He says, Hey Chris, so much of quote unquote running it back seemed to hinge on Mowgli. Do you see improvement? And I think Matt is asking like,
Chris (21:47.206)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (22:07.852)
Because you’re in the room, what have you seen? There have been lots of videos circulating and all those different things. What are your two eyes telling you about Evan Moe?
Chris (22:21.822)
in terms of what?
Ethan Sands (22:26.67)
Like where is he improving? Where is he gonna be able to help this group grow?
Chris (22:32.165)
Okay, so I think the biggest thing that I’ve seen, because like we’ve heard a lot from the players and we’ve heard a lot from Evan, I actually asked him the other day, where are you most comfortable on the floor? And he turned to me and he said, anywhere. And then I asked him, followed up, I said, well, wait a minute, like, have you always been that way? Or did it take you a while to get there? And it’s just part of your evolution that who you are as a player right now is different.
And you feel different than the guy that came in as a rookie. and he said it was part of his evolution. It’s something that he always expected as he got more experience and more game reps and more understanding of his go-to moves and his counters and things along those lines. I don’t totally buy it. I don’t think he is most comfortable out on the perimeter. I don’t think he’s most comfortable behind the three point line, but the thing that is noticeable.
And this is something that I saw the other day. His shot is different. I am not a shooting coach. I am not a shot doctor. Okay. but I’ve talked to a lot of different coaches that study these things and I’ve gone back and I’ve watched some film of Evan last year, the year before and what it looked like the other day when I posted,
YouTube short of Evan taking shots alongside Sam Merrill and and and Ty Jerome and The shot is different. It is there is a noticeable change in his release. There is a noticeable change in his form He’s not shooting as much with his palm. That’s something that Played him early on in his career. There’s not a hitch at the top like there was it’s faster
It’s smoother and I think it can be more reliable and more consistent. You’ve to see it in game action, right? It’s one thing to just go through all these different workouts post-practice, shoot a certain kind of way. How does it look with pressure? How does it look with a defender closing in on you instead of somebody holding up a thing that looks like a broom? How does it look when the shot clock is winding down and you don’t have
Chris (24:55.407)
the exact balance that you get because you can’t step into a shot the same kind of way. All of those things, I think we’re going to have to continue to monitor. But if we’re just talking about the mechanics, if we’re just talking about the form, it is different. And that is a good thing.
Ethan Sands (25:15.65)
Yeah, I mean the most noticeable thing I saw when it came to the shot and also like just the videos that were circulating comparing him from what videos were taken during training camp this year and then also just throughout the season, the last couple of seasons. It’s just the hitch at the top, like you mentioned, and the smoothness, but also his base looks a little bit different as well. It looks like he’s more balanced. It looks like he’s more strong in the legs, areas.
where he’s able to get more lift when he’s shooting the basketball. It feels like this is a guy that really honed in on this and is trying to gain confidence to do this in multiple levels this season. I mean, I think, like obviously you got to see it in game, but I don’t think a lot of teams are going to be like, okay, Evan Mobley said he’s been better at shooting. We’re going to close out now. Like there were a lot of different opportunities last year where Evan was like,
Chris (26:11.558)
Hmm.
Ethan Sands (26:15.512)
kind of surprised by the space that he was given. And I think that the hesitation that he had last year might’ve gone away a little bit more as well. He looks more fluid. He looks more ready to shoot it and more confident because of the reps that he’s put in. Obviously when you’re trying to adjust to a new scheme midway through the season while coming back from knee surgery, that’s a little difficult to do. But when you have the entire summer to work on this, it’s like, okay, this is where I want to get stronger.
This is where I want to focus. And I feel like he’s done more of the reps that he’s needed to feel comfortable doing those things. Obviously in game is going to be completely different. Maybe they do close out on Evan, but if they don’t, I think he has to make them pay or it’s not going to be as fruitful as he wanted it to be.
Chris (26:57.485)
my god.
Chris (27:04.805)
Yeah, he’s also, this is the other thing. He’s also got to be willing to take those shots and believe that those are good shots within the flow of the offense. And I will say that, you know, as the season progressed last year, he was more willing to take those shots and, you know, Evan is a mild mannered kind of guy. He’s California chill laid back. But the thing that he celebrates the most since coming into the NBA.
is making a three. So like he knows the importance of that to his game and he knows that that when he makes one it is a big deal and it is really really important to the Cavs that he takes those and he makes those. But I don’t think it’s just going to happen overnight snap of a finger where he’s going to turn into this volume three point shooter. I think it’s going to continue to be a natural progression where he has to have
enough thought in his mind that that is the right shot. That’s the right shot for him and that’s the right shot for the Cavs. And I don’t know that he is there yet.
Ethan Sands (28:15.722)
I got a little bit of a longer question here for you with some background information But we got away from we got through a lot of the different beforehand What is the actual going around training camp now? We’re getting into the questions more so surrounding individual players and their situations on this team this one I know you missed it is about Isaac Okoro. So it’s from when William Wingo
from Columbus, Ohio. Sorry if I butchered that. I have a tendency to do that. Isaac Acora wants to be, wants to make an all defensive team. How realistic do you think that is if he gets under 30 minutes a game? At media day, he said the only thing holding him back is the requirements, yet he hasn’t averaged a single steal per game in any year he’s played. But the eye test does say he’s one of the elite. How much will his counting stats?
Chris (28:43.025)
you
Ethan Sands (29:11.05)
matter alongside the fact that people look to Mobley, then Jared Allen, and then Okoro, it seems. Would you bet yes or no for him to get on an all-defensive team by the end of this extension?
Chris (29:24.827)
So Ethan, I can’t speak for the way that other voters do it, but the way that I do it as a voter is I have a running list of who I think is in the conversation for each individual award as the season continues to go on. MVP, Defensive Player of the Year, First Team All-NBA, First Team All-Defense. And I try and make notes as the season progresses.
of who is deserving of those kinds of things. And then at the very, very end, when it’s time to vote, I whittle it down. I talk to players as much as I can off the record. I talk to coaches off the record. talk to executives off the record, guys that know these things better than me, guys that are smarter than me. And it doesn’t mean that they’re making their picks. It’s just to inform my decision-maker.
And if they bring up somebody that’s not on my list, then I go back and I think about, why don’t I have that person on my list? What am I missing? What kinds of things do I need to be looking at? All that kind of stuff.
As, as the season was going on last year, Isaac was on my list. I considered him as an all defensive type player, the whole entire year. And I think Isaac brings up a point that, you know, we have to continue to remember that there are different parameters for end of season awards. and, and for some guys it’s,
Certainly, how many games do you play? But for other guys like Isaac and Dante DiVincenzo last year, the number of minutes is part of the equation as well. Even if you do meet one of the thresholds, you have to meet the other threshold. So I think there are enough smart people out there that cover the NBA that understand how impactful and how great of a defender Isaac Okoro is.
Chris (31:20.429)
and, and I know that there were other voters that as the season was going on before it was time to submit a vote, and they were making their lists just like I do. I know that there was some other voters that were asking me about Isaac and the kind of impact that he has on the defense because they were considering him as well. I don’t think voters look all that much. Okay. I can’t speak for every voter and some people have goofy votes. We all know.
That’s what happens in life. I don’t think the majority of voters look at counting stats like steals. Like that’s part of it. You throw everything together, right? You look at steals, you look at blocks, you look at defensive rating, you look at on-off rating, you look at Dunks and threes, defensive estimated plus minus, you look at box plus minus on defense.
Like there are so many, you want to look at Raptor, you can look at Raptor. If you want to look at D LeBron, you can look at D LeBron. There are so many different statistics these days that I don’t think there’s one that drives anybody’s vote or anybody’s decision. I think you lump them all together and you kind of break it down and you determine what you think is the most important or what is the most telling.
to who should be defensive player of the year or all defense or things like that. So that was a long winded answer, but I don’t think it’s going to be held against Isaac that he doesn’t get a whole bunch of steals because there are so many other ways that he makes an impact on the defensive end of the floor. And I think those are better quantified by some of the deeper analytics that are designed to show a player’s impact or value.
Ethan Sands (33:13.4)
My short answer, if Isaac Okoro plays how we did last season, gets the minutes and plays in the amount of games that he needs to be in the running, I think he could be in the running or should be in the running for an all defensive team. Whether it’s second or first, we’ll see if he makes a jump defensively this year. But I definitely think that second team is something that he could have his eyes on. But the next question coming from.
Ethan Sands (33:42.368)
Shannon from Fort Worth, Texas says, what does Jalen Tyson’s long-term ceiling look like at this point in his development? I mean, he’s a rookie, right? So we’re very early on making a call right now. He’s compared himself to Kayla Martin. He’s compared himself to Josh Hart. Are you leaning towards one of those guys, Chris? Or who do you think his ceiling could be of comparisons in the NBA?
Chris (34:13.147)
You know, I talked to his trainer while I was at Summer League in Las Vegas and the names that he brought up were the same, Caleb Martin and Josh Hart.
It’s hard to say that like that’s his ceiling because I think there’s so much that we still don’t know about Jalen Tyson, the NBA player. But like, I think that’s fair to look at those kinds of guys and say his game is pretty similar to them. He can have that kind of impact for them. Maybe he’s not going to be the rebounder that Josh Hart is. But he might shoot it better from three point range than Josh Hart.
Maybe he’s not going to be the kind of defensive menace that Josh Hart and Caleb Martin can both be, but he might be a better scorer than both of those guys can be when it comes to slashing, when it comes to the mid-range, when it comes to extending his game out to the perimeter. He might have more opportunities to make more plays than somebody like Caleb Martin who is
More of a guy who, for the most part for Miami, just kind of plays a specific role, not a high usage guy, not a big touch guy, not a volume shooter or anything like that. He’s kind of somebody who floats around the corner and around the perimeter, unless there’s a whole bunch of guys out and then he has to take on a different role and start to do different things. So I do think there are aspects of Jaylen’s game on the offensive end.
both from a scoring standpoint and even a passing standpoint that make me think he could be better than Caleb Martin. And like I said, there are other places where I think he could come up short of Josh Hart because you just cannot. I mean, Josh Hart is one of the best rebounders in the NBA, regardless of position. And he has done that at a high level for a number of years.
Chris (36:19.717)
that you can’t just assume that Jalen Tyson is going to be that level of rebounder, right? So I do think that those are quality names, but I think there could be more out of Jalen on the offense event, I do.
Ethan Sands (36:36.75)
I think it’s really interesting, right? Cause I agree with you. don’t think like not to discredit Josh Hart or Caleb Martin, but is that really a ceiling player? Like is that where you’re striving to get? You want to, I would assume Jalen Tyson wants to come out the gate and play like those kinds of guys, right? Being able to have that kind of impact in the lesser minutes that you get. For me, it’s looking at like what areas he could really skyrocket in that
Haven’t been talked about too much. We’ve talked about it Chris, right? Because that’s something that he’s mentioned and what I’m getting at is the defensive end of the ball Is he going to be able to guard his position? Is he going to be able to? Play as big and as strong as he looks as he is 6-7 and just be able to guard a small forward power forward role as we talked about potentially for Jaylen Tyson for me somebody that I would compare with out of the gate
Chris (37:09.169)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (37:35.938)
that I feel like is could be a stretch, but this is what I’m talking about is a ceiling like Jalen Brown, right? Six, seven, kind of the same build. Yeah, it’s a ceiling. It’s a ceiling. And I’m just saying, I think with his scoring acumen, being able to get to the rim, being able to bully some guys when necessary has a questionable jump shot that could be grown on upon when it comes to his career. And also just
Chris (37:49.509)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (38:04.652)
changing himself to be more of a defensive player, which we’ve heard about this season, this preseason already in training camp, something that a lot of different guys have mentioned is how hard he goes on both ends of the ball. And also Jaylen Brown had some things that were said about him coming out of college that would kind of compare, right? And he’s a slasher. He does things with the ball in his hands, all these other things. I just think.
Chris (38:27.494)
Mm-hmm.
Ethan Sands (38:32.782)
When we’re talking about ceiling, that’s where I would put them right now. Cause they have the kind of the same build, same body and might be in the same kind of, similar role when it comes to like positioning and things of that nature.
Chris (38:48.037)
Yeah, in saying that, I think most NBA teams would love to have Caleb Martin and I think they’d love to have Josh Hart. Caleb Martin is a very effective wing who can play multiple positions and he played an enormous role in Miami reaching the NBA Finals a couple seasons ago. And Josh Hart is a Cavs killer. I don’t think anybody in Cleveland needs me to say how impactful, how much of a winner Josh Hart is. The Cavs like Josh Hart. They tried to get him a couple of years ago.
Maybe they got him in Jaylen Tyson with the 20th pick in this year’s draft. So even if he does, even if he doesn’t, you know, get to a different kind of level than that or surpass Caleb Martin and Josh Hart, if he does get to that level, I think the Cavs would be happy with that. And I think they would have an effective wing. Who can impact the floor in a variety of ways.
Ethan Sands (39:42.156)
wasn’t saying that Josh Hart and Caleb Martin aren’t two really good players. I’m just saying that I think there could be a higher ceiling and I don’t want to put a cap on a rookie that we have not yet seen play an actual NBA regular season game. That’s what I’m getting at. Chris, I have one last subtext to read for us and it is more so a statement.
Chris (39:44.528)
Ha
Ethan Sands (40:08.65)
rather than a question and I wanted to end on it because it gave some insight to how a Cavs fan might be thinking coming into this season, especially with preseason, just a couple days away. I know you get back into the city of Cleveland and it’s like, okay, couple days to roll around and now we’re back in the Rocket Mortgage Fieldhouse. So here we go. This is from Brian from San Diego. He says, Chris, Ethan and Jimmy, guys and Cavs fans,
Chris (40:25.067)
Yeah.
yeah.
Ethan Sands (40:37.812)
Let’s enjoy the anticipation of this season. Having lived through many losing seasons since the expansion year, we have a terrific roster. The core four is back. We gained some playoff experience. Internal improvement will come. Plus Ty Jerome and the Cal rookie add some depth. Garland won’t break his jaw this year and a new coach may help spark the offense. Let’s embrace what we have and go out and shock the world. My in occasion draw.
Guaranteed crawfish at two-fade prediction is take the over with 52 wins and we are in the finals battling the set of the Eastern Conference finals battling the Celtics. Let’s enjoy this ride. Keep up the good work So from our guy Brian from San Diego, what do you think Chris? Should we just sit back relax and enjoy? I think that’s I think that’s the direction we should go
Chris (41:35.483)
Yeah, I mean, I do think that too many times people get caught up into whether a team can win a championship or whether a team will win a championship. One team does. And it doesn’t mean that another team can’t have some success, right? Like we’ve talked about this a few different times when it comes to the Cavs. Yes, they’re in win now mode, but like they’re not in the same situation as some of these other high price teams that are aging.
This is a young core that there’s some natural, organic growth that can happen with them alongside Kenny Atkinson as their head coach. So I do think sometimes people get caught up into the other things and they don’t enjoy a team as much as maybe they should, or they don’t enjoy regular season success as much as they should. was talking to a different media member about this on media day and it’s like, the Cavs aren’t a good place.
They’re not Boston. think everybody understands that they’re not Boston, but they’re a really good team. And, I don’t think we can lose sight of that. Even if they don’t win a championship this year in the first year of Kenny Atkinson. I do think they need to continue to take steps forward as an organization. I do think they need to continue to go further and further in the postseason, but
I’m not going to sit here and look at this season. Maybe the players will because they’re ultra competitive. But from what I believe to be true about the Eastern Conference and what I believe to be true about the Cavs and where they stand in the Eastern Conference, I’m not going to look at this season, Ethan, if they fail to win a championship and say it’s a failure. Let’s let this thing play out and let’s then determine what level of judgment it is, what level of success it is.
But as of right now, because Boston still exists, because I think New York is really freaking good. And I think Philadelphia is really freaking good. And I know that there are some weaknesses on the Cavs roster that eventually they’re going to have to address. Success to me this year isn’t solely going to be defined by whether they win a championship.
Ethan Sands (43:58.862)
I’m just excited to see some basketball, man. I’m excited to see these guys hoop. I’m excited to see like the joy. I think that was like something that I really harped on last season, but it was true. When they played with joy, when they played with camaraderie and they played cohesive basketball, they are such a better team than they give, than a lot of teams in a lot of organizations give them credit for. And I think this is a team that is so tight knit.
Chris (44:19.633)
Uh-uh.
Ethan Sands (44:27.936)
and it might be the tightest knit team in the NBA that like, okay, we’re gonna run it back with so many players. We got this big shiny thing called Kenny Atkinson about to leave the way. And I I mean, come on. Like it’s just gonna be a fun year where we get to see what this team is made of. And then if things need to be changed, I don’t think the team will hesitate to do that.
Chris (44:41.369)
pressure Kenny.
Chris (44:53.615)
Yeah.
Chris (44:57.145)
Yeah, that’s the other thing. Like I look at the first part of this year, just, just me personally and say, okay, what does this look like with a new coach? Okay. How are they progressing on the offensive end? Do they have a top 10 offensive ceiling or are they more middle of the pack the way that they were because of the fit questions with this roster? that’s the thing. Like I do think it is hard to build a team, Ethan.
that has 13 or 14 playable NBA guys. I mean, I was out there earlier today at training camp and I was looking at all the guys that were on the court and I was like, that guy can play in the NBA, that guy can play in the NBA, that guy can play in the NBA. There aren’t very many guys on this NBA roster, the regular roster that you sit there and you say, that guy shouldn’t be playing at all.
That guy’s not an NBA player at this stage of his career. And that’s hard to build. It has a really good place to be. At the same time, as much as you think they have enough pieces, and you may think they have the kinds of pieces that you need in order to win, there are legitimate questions about whether those pieces are the right fit to win a championship. You know what I’m saying? So I think all of that
has to play itself out. What does it look like for Darius and Donovan if Darius doesn’t have the season that he did last year? What does it look like for Jarrett and Evan together if Evan really is more involved on the offensive end, if he really is more comfortable out on the perimeter? I think the front office wants answers to those questions too. I think they believe in the talent that they have assembled, duh.
There’s a reason why they brought these guys in and free agency traded for them and drafted them. but, but I think they want to see what it looks like in this system with this coach, a coach that, that may have more confidence coming from the players, more belief coming from the players. And, and if it doesn’t work, they’re not in a situation that some of these other teams are across the NBA where they’re just so hamstrung. They’re into the second apron.
Chris (47:22.107)
They can’t really make moves because they don’t have assets. Yeah, I think we can admit that the Cavs draft capital is very, very low when it comes to trying to make trades, but they have young, attractive players that can make up for that if they want to push that button. I’m not saying that they do want to push that button, but if they do feel like, hey, the pieces don’t fit as well as they need to for us to take the next step and compete with Boston and be a championship team.
I think they have the flexibility and I think they have the means to go out and do that. So, you know, for me, part of the fun of this particular season is getting to see this newness and figuring out what that all means in the big picture.
Ethan Sands (48:14.478)
I mean, I know a lot of people were like, okay, he’s talking about we want to see basketball. He’s just another talking head, yada, yada, yada. Like, what I mean by that is we’re doing so much talking. Like, I don’t want to be a talking head. I want to be able to talk about the stats, the analytics, all of the things that we can look at to compare what’s going on with this team. And to do that, they need to be able to play meaningful basketball games, right? Preseason, sure. You get a little taste of things.
Some guys might not play all the minutes, whatever. Chris has already told me that I’m taking preseason two seriously because I’m excited. I’m trying to dumb it down, right? But like, I’m saying you need to be able to see these guys on the court. We’ve seen practice. We haven’t even got to, Chris might’ve. I haven’t gotten to see them scrimmage, right? And the last question from our subtexter, which was funny enough, I wanted to just quickly throw this in there.
Chris (48:51.013)
Yeah.
Ethan Sands (49:12.046)
Chris, do you know if they’re have a wine and gold scrimmage for fans to see this year?
Chris (49:16.997)
I don’t, I don’t think they’re going to though.
Ethan Sands (49:20.546)
Alrighty, you heard it here first, Mr. Chris Fidor, I’m eating sans and that’ll wrap up today’s episode of the Wine and Gold Top Podcast. But remember to become a Cavs Insider and interact with Chris, me and Jimmy by subscribing to SoTechs. This is where you can send in all your questions. We usually do a Hey Chris podcast almost every week. Sign up for a 14 day free trial or visit cleveland.com backslash Cavs and click on the blue bar at the top.
the page. If you don’t like it, that’s fine. All you have to do is text the word stop. It’s easy. But we can tell you that the people who signed up, stick around because this is the best way to get insider coverage on the Cavs from me, Chris and Jimmy. This isn’t just our podcast. It’s your podcast. And the only way to have your voice heard is through subtext. Y’all be safe. We out.
