CLEVELAND, Ohio — Welcome to this week’s Terry’s Talkin’ podcast with cleveland.com columnist Terry Pluto and host David Campbell. Today we start with the Guardians, and how they might attack the rest of their AL Division Series against the Tigers.
We also delve into the Browns offense, and Terry’s take on how the Browns might approach the future with Deshaun Watson.
And Terry tries to guess what the Cavs offense might look like as the preseason begins with new coach Kenny Atkinson.
Highlights:
- Terry’s take on Tarik Skubal of the Tigers, and Emmanuel Clase as the Guardians and Detroit continue their AL Division Series;
- The Guardians’ midseason acquisitions might be the best in baseball, as we’ve seen so fare in the ALDS;
- The unexpected defensive skills of Jhonkensy Noel;
- What Terry thinks of Terry Francona taking over as manager of the Cincinnati Reds;
- Making a lineup: David Fry or Kyle Manzardo? Austin Hedges or Bo Naylor?
- Can the Guardians find a way to break Skubal’s rhythm if there is a Game 5 Saturday?
- What the Browns will do with Deshaun Watson; and what they should do;
- Jayden Daniels was what the Browns thought they were getting when they made the Watson trade;
- Who was to blame for Deshaun Watson’s 7 sacks on Sunday vs. the Commanders;
- Terry’s breakdown of the Browns’ presnap penalties;
- A series of plays that showed everything going wrong with the Browns offense right now;
- Remembering the one-of-a-kind Dan Coughlin;
- What we’re most curious about the Cavs and new coach Kenny Atkinson as preseason games begin;
- And a listener email from Kenya.
Here’s the podcast for this week.
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You can email any comments or questions you may have about the podcast, to [email protected], and put “Terry’s Talkin’” in the subject line.
You can find previous podcasts below. The transcript below was generated by a computer, and so it contains many spelling and grammar errors.
David Campbell (03:28.032)
Hey, welcome. It is time for this week’s edition of the Terry’s Talkin’ podcast featuring Mr. Terry Pluto, plane dealer and cleveland.com columnist, and me, David Campbell, your host. Terry, I can hear the ringing of hands happening across the Cleveland sports universe this week with the way things are going with the Guardians and the Browns. Very stressful if you’re a Cleveland fan this week.
Terry (03:52.886)
Well, I mean, that is so.
Those things are going such divergent directions. mean, the fact that the guardians lost a scubal, I mean, really he’s 18 and four was his overall record. Interesting stuff on him. he didn’t quite get to a hundred pitches yesterday. He’s how many times you think he’s thrown a hundred pitches this year.
David Campbell (04:19.775)
Four? no, I just guessed.
Terry (04:20.812)
Yeah. Now did you look?
Okay, well the answer is four. All right, now we’ll see how good you are with a high of how many pitches.
David Campbell (04:31.478)
I’m going to say 107. okay. Yeah.
Terry (04:33.614)
103. So they watch him close. I mean, I’ve read, there’s a long story on the athletic on him a couple of years ago. I this guy is from Kingman, Arizona. He had one division one offer from Seattle university, which was basically reestablishing his baseball program. He went up there and he was like tall and skinny and he began to put on weight, throw harder and was starting to pitch himself.
into the first round and he had arm problems. Surgery came back and dropped to the ninth round by the Tigers. And then when he was in the minors, he was very close with Matthew Boyd and a couple of the other pitchers. and so, but nobody saw this coming. That’s what’s kind of cool about this. Nobody saw Scoobel being this, you know, saw young pitcher. And I think the.
I know the voting is at the end of the regular season. So that one game shouldn’t have been, you know, won’t decide that, but I’m always reluctant to vote for relievers as a young, even as great as Klaus A. And after having watched school a couple of times now live, and how dominant he’s been for a team that’s not, you know, basically not a great team. Let’s get real. They’re playing great, but they’re not a great team. in terms of talent, I mean, he’s a Cy Young winner. So the fact they lost again to him.
The tough part is you held them squirrels too, so you set yourself up to steal one.
David Campbell (06:06.292)
Yeah, yeah. Well, we got a to get to this week, Terry. Why don’t we start with the Guardians and we’ll talk about the Browns. Man, there’s so much to get into there. And we will. The Cavs are getting going this week. We’ve got some fan letters we want to get into. And I know we wanted to spend some time talking about Danny Coughlin today. Cleveland Sports lost a great, great person this week. And we’ll spend some time talking about him. But Terry, you and I were both at game two yesterday for the Guardians. They’re headed.
Terry (06:15.948)
Yeah.
Terry (06:26.275)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (06:35.424)
while they’re in Detroit today, we’re taping this on Tuesday, late afternoon. Series is one one. Game three is set for Wednesday at 3 0 8 PM. there was a lot going on yesterday and Steven vote. The first thing he said in his post game interviews was that was an outstanding baseball game and it was a pleasure to be a part of it. And I couldn’t have agreed more like just watching that yesterday.
Terry (06:49.454)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (07:01.45)
And there’s something about playoff baseball too, where in October the sun starts to move to a different angle. And it just looks like October and it’s cooler. it was just that game, I think they went through four innings in the first hour. It was flying along. was everything playoff baseball should be. What did you think of what you saw yesterday? And then we’ll go from there. it really was. Yeah.
Terry (07:05.39)
Mm-hmm.
Terry (07:14.852)
Yeah.
Terry (07:19.982)
And the defense was outstanding, was just outstanding. you know, big Christmas, big Christmas could really play right field by the way we’ve seen it. mean, not just that game. I’ve seen it ever since he’s come off. He’s got a great arm. He, he moves average to above average. He seems to get good angles on balls. So the key thing there will be if, you he could avoid all the striking out in that, cause if you could put a power bad out there, I mean, even if he hits like two 30, but he hit 25 or 30 homers.
you know, we’re an OPS over 800. he doesn’t hurt you defensively. Now I’m not sure about that’s going to happen because he’s really, you know, struggled with, control in the strike zone, but he, that play he made in the corner where he threw that guy on second base on a line. I mean, it’s as good as it is. I mean, it’s, I’m not saying quite of their bright. I remember when I was a kid, seeing Roberto Clemente make a play like that. You run a ball down the corner turnaround and just fire a rocket to second base.
And the runner is just dumbfounded. Like he figured almost he’s going to go and they’re standing up and the guy’s like waiting for him with the ball. It’s just, it was amazing to see that. And then of course, Kwan’s diving play was terrific. I couldn’t decide. At first I thought, no, then I watched replay and I still thought, no, then I saw no replay. thought, maybe he did. And then in the end he’d go, I don’t know. So that’s when he’d say, all right, you just go with whatever the umpires say.
David Campbell (08:30.058)
Did you think Klon caught that ball?
David Campbell (08:44.694)
Yeah, I thought he got it. I did see a little bit of a hop, the mitt was on the glove was underneath it. And it actually, the glove was on the ground and I thought the ball hit the glove and bounced up into the glove. So I thought it was an outstanding catch. And AJ Hintz after the game was talking about like, was trying to look at the replay to see if I could find one little blade of grass that was sticking up under the ball and they couldn’t find it. So one of the great catches you’ll see, especially in the stakes there.
Terry (08:52.568)
Mm-hmm.
Terry (09:06.711)
Yeah.
Terry (09:11.286)
And know, Hinch was very interesting after the game because he said, I think the last time Detroit was in the playoffs was 2013. And he said, you know, our stadium is going to be electric. know, Detroit’s been waiting for this. And on top of it, the way they’ve done it, where I think it’s like 44 and 14 now when you count wins in the playoffs and.
how they finished on the middle of August on. So if you’re 44 and 14 and it means you’ve played 58 games, which basically is a third of a season, you’re not a fluke. You’re really good team at this point.
David Campbell (09:55.03)
Well, Terry, I, I’ve seen these commercials on TV. think they’re for Navy federal and it’s like, I don’t know where I’d be without them. And they always show like, these guys in a car wash without a car or whatever. And if you’re watching the game yesterday and you’re a guardians fan, have to be thinking like, where would these guys be without Lane Thomas and Matthew Boyd. And I think game one, we saw just what a difference Lane Thomas has made, especially over the last month. And then Matthew Boyd just, he went toe to toe with Scoobl yesterday until he was taken out.
Terry (10:02.04)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Terry (10:12.963)
Yeah.
Terry (10:24.782)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (10:25.09)
And some story, those two guys are going to figure prominently the rest of the way here. And they’ve just been outstanding pickups by the guardians.
Terry (10:34.542)
And I’ll add another one now. Now it cycles back to the year before, but Kyle Manzardo down the stretch. Remember they traded Aaron Savali for him who’s since been traded again to Milwaukee. and no, Manzardo, maybe the hardest ball hit other than the home run might’ve been that ball Manzardo hit to the right field wall. Excuse me. The left field wall. you know, Manzardo somebody, well, of course I don’t know who the heck the Tigers are going to pitch, but it doesn’t matter. They’re going to pitch six guys again, probably.
You may want to put Manzardo in the lineup and see if he could in Detroit if he could get one out of the ballpark So you have him? Yeah
David Campbell (11:11.476)
Yeah, I was going to ask you about that, Terry, real quick. would you have Manzard or DH tomorrow instead of fry then?
Terry (11:17.696)
Yeah, I’d have to look and again, you know, the normal way you make out a lineup, this is where the bullpen gets you. It becomes sort of irrelevant because, or you start looking at the stats of hitters, you know, versus pitchers. For example, when,
When vote took out by B and game one to carpenter, carpenters come to the plate at that point. Carpenter was three for six with a Homer against white by B. So I think he just decided to, we’re up. I’m going to go to the bullpen next inning. Anyway, I’ll just do it now. And so, but all right. So same man’s articles three for five against whoever it is, but that guy may only face them once or maybe not even at all. You don’t know how they’re going. So.
David Campbell (12:06.229)
Yeah.
Terry (12:07.446)
You kind of got to say do I feel Manzardo swinging a bat well enough to throw him in there? I don’t think Manzardo’s helpless against lefties either, so I would. Frye, you know, I know Frye had a big hit in game one, but let’s be fair, since the All-Star break, he’s not been all that good.
And we could look that up, but. I mean basically I would probably find a spot for Manzardo in lineup, DH him. you know David Fry has struggled some since the All-Star break and I think I would go with him with Manzardo.
David Campbell (00:16.915)
And then what about a catcher, Terry? Austin Hedges or Bo Nailer?
Terry (00:19.244)
Well, Hedge has played. Do you know why he played?
David Campbell (00:24.479)
No.
Terry (00:25.272)
He was three for eight against Google. They were looking for anybody with stats against Google. And that was the main reason. So they went with him. Now I would probably go with Bo and see how he does. And what about any, you have any line up thoughts or anything?
David Campbell (00:27.488)
okay.
David Campbell (00:50.025)
No, I agree with that. I also think that Hedges is good to have in the last third of the game in case you need a bunt put down or something. He can do a lot of that in terms of moving a runner over or, you know, if they want, they’ve run a lot of safety squeeze with him this year. So I think he gives you some, that gives you a little bit of late inning technique that you might be able to go to late. So I think that’s a good approach, Terry. Start with Bo Naylor and see where it goes. Yeah.
Terry (00:56.12)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Terry (01:02.222)
Mm-hmm.
Terry (01:09.453)
Yeah.
Terry (01:16.936)
I mean, you could do that. I mean, I was just kind of looking at some stuff now. and it’s this last five games, fry is, four for 11. So he’s, he’s been hitting better lately. I don’t know. You, kind of bounce around, with, with these guys at this point of the year, you know, who do who you feel think are feeling it? I just feel like Manzaro does bring some power. And if you look at these games,
You know, you need to hit some home runs. mean, three run, three run shot from Wayne Thomas. Yeah. Wayne time. This is classic. He goes four for 55 after they pick him up. Then, he gets hot in September, seven homers, 20 RBIs and the first playoff pitch he sees in his career. He says we’re in Homer. so to, to go where he talked about, and Boyd was picked up, you know, throwing, started, began throwing out of his garage into a net, picked up after they had a.
scouting showcase and the boros people kept sending Scott boros as the agent kept sending videos of Boyd going along and along with a lot of analytic data on spin rates and that kind of stuff It’d be interesting. I mean, I guess you got to assume they’re telling the truth when they do send that data, but so they they were able to go with him, but the idea being that
Yeah, he’s, he’s throwing pretty well now, but he is coming off Tommy John and coming to talk for Tommy John fast 14 months. That’s fast. And you know, what does arm get hurt? Just like they brought in Alex Cobb, off the hip surgery. And then he had a finger thing when they picked them up and they’ve kind of got some starts out of them and they’ve not gotten some. So, but in the end you put Cobb and, void.
And Thomas together, I doubt any other team picked up three guys that have helped them as much those last couple of months.
David Campbell (03:16.871)
I sure can’t think of any. So that’s pretty good triple play right there if you want to call it that. So, Terry, I don’t know if you’ve been seeing this. We got at least one email yesterday and I’ve been seeing a little chatter on social media with Emmanuel Classe and Jose Mesa in the same paragraph. And, a lot of people are down after yesterday. What did you see from Classe yesterday? And are you encouraged, discouraged or waiting to see what happens the rest of the way? But.
Terry (03:22.051)
Mm-hmm.
Terry (03:34.638)
or yeah, I got.
David Campbell (03:46.849)
it was an off appearance for him yesterday. was a long appearance for him yesterday. And what did you see?
Terry (03:54.648)
I see it was like Phil Dawson missed a field goal and he’ll make the next one. I mean, that’s kind of how I feel about it. His track record is too long and too good. I did go to look more than he threw a slider and it’s not his best pitch and you know, all that kind of stuff.
David Campbell (04:11.891)
Yeah, that, was interesting to me. we talk about that for a second? So we’ve been, you know, we’ve been talking the last several months about class a’s best pitch being his cut fastball. And he got Torkelson, I think on a slider, a really good slider that was out of the zone 90 miles an hour. And then I think the next two guys, was Rogers and Sweeney both singled off of fastballs. And if you’re class a at that point and you’re feeling like you don’t have, maybe don’t have the movement.
Terry (04:12.066)
Classic no Yeah
Terry (04:20.62)
Yeah.
Terry (04:24.365)
Mm-hmm.
Terry (04:32.142)
Mm-hmm.
Terry (04:39.532)
Mm-hmm, exactly.
David Campbell (04:39.645)
I don’t have the movement of my cut fastball today. That might explain why he went with the slider on the home run because he had just gotten a strikeout on it. I don’t know. Does that make sense to you from a pitcher’s perspective?
Terry (04:49.03)
Mm-hmm Yeah, if you don’t feel good about you’re trying to find you know what you have the the I thought a more legit thing was Okay, pitch more than anything. So I went through to see okay. How many times has he done this? This season he did it once he pitched two scoreless innings against the Yankees. So that’s it last year He pitched one enough in a third scoreless innings. I forgot who it was. He gave up an honor and run
And another time he pitched one and a third and didn’t give up any runs. So it’s three times in two years, but there’s nothing in those very small sample size to make you think he just goes out the second time and throws batting practice. and I know that, volt was asked about it and he said, he’s my best pitcher and I just wanted to put them out there in the ninth. you could argue, maybe you should have stuck with Gattas to try to get out of that inning, but here is the big temptation in all these playoff games. Now is.
I get a couple of hours from one guy, basically I want to finally get to my best reliever. And maybe you do bring him in too soon. I don’t know.
David Campbell (05:58.409)
Yeah, I got the sense, like both within Klausse’s approach yesterday because of the slider and the cut fastball thing and also vote, like because they had the day off before and they have a day off after they kind of went away from what they usually do, right? Like they might’ve, they might’ve gone longer with Gaddis and just given Klausse the ninth in a normal game because, we have to pit, we have to play tomorrow. So would you like to see them go back to just like be who you are kind of and trust your cut fastball and give them the ninth inning? Yeah, I don’t know.
Terry (06:04.494)
Mm-hmm.
Terry (06:08.589)
Yep.
Yes, I did.
Terry (06:22.752)
Maybe they should, maybe they should with him. Yeah, I mean, just put him out there. I I wouldn’t even spend a lot of time thinking about it. I want to make sure he’s feeling okay. look, you’re the best reliever I have seen since Mariano Rivera and that’s it. Are you feeling fine? Are you looking good? Talk to the medical people, make sure his arm’s not suddenly tired or something. Look at the video, make sure there was no real, suddenly he gets mechanics who screwed up or anything.
If all that’s fine, it’s fine. It’s just a bad time to do. mean, never gave up a three run homer in his big league career. I mean, it’s just, it was amazing. Gave up five earn runs all year. I mean, you know, I can’t finish the sentence because these things are almost unprecedented. Now.
David Campbell (07:08.565)
So you’d like to just do the Lenny Wilkins thing you were talking about last week of just keep it simple. Don’t try to do too much. Yeah. All right.
Terry (07:11.81)
Yeah, I don’t try to do too much. And the other thing that I would mention though, now Terry Francona did this in their playoff drive in 16. Andrew Miller pitched multiple innings quite a bit, but he also wasn’t the closer, you know, that, that year. So, Cody Allen was, but they, they, I think they had multiple innings. went multiple innings with Brian Shaw also, during that time. I’m hopefully my memory is correct.
So that’s, that’s, did a little research. would say inconclusive on, on, close a pitching more than one inning.
David Campbell (07:53.137)
And it was 28 pitches yesterday and yeah, then four hits, three runs, three earned, one strike.
Terry (07:55.66)
Yeah, that’s a lot.
The bad sign is you didn’t see him breaking any, you didn’t see him breaking any bats when he’s really good. That cutter or whatever is busting in on those lefties fist and breaking bats, or he’s just throwing that fastball right in on the fist. he didn’t do that. You know, carpenter, I looked him up, you know, he’s a platoon player. I mean, he’s one of their better hitters, but they use him primarily against right-handed pitching. So, I mean, at that line, a brother in Raleigh green, I who do you know?
Torkelson was the number one pick overall in the draft, but he’s, you know, he struggled up and down the Toledo. I look at them. I’m not sure how they’re doing what they’re doing, but they’ve been doing it for too long to be dismissive of anything that they’re doing. How’s that?
David Campbell (08:42.441)
Yeah, well, and here’s the thing, Terry, just looking ahead. So off day Monday, I mean, game Monday, off day Tuesday, right? Then games Wednesday, Thursday off Friday. If there is a game five, it will be back in Cleveland on Saturday, which is October 12th. And guess who’s going to be pitching because in a five, like you, you normally wouldn’t see over the course of five games, the same starter twice, but scuba will be pitching on Saturday. If it comes to it. Like a norm, there’ll be a normal.
Terry (08:58.22)
Yeah, Scoville’s pitching.
David Campbell (09:11.539)
rotation day for him, right? he’ll, so what do you think the guardians need to do to get to him earlier that they didn’t do yesterday?
Terry (09:11.637)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (09:22.407)
Or can they? Is it going to be a repeat?
Terry (09:24.344)
When they got a guy in base, get a broken bat bloop single. I mean, something like that. Or he throws a hang in slider like Klaus A did and somebody, Jose or somebody just tears into it. Now could be Lane Thomas, left-handed pitcher, Lane Histo’s lefties. That would be, that would be, but it was gonna happen by the end of this playoffs. We will be talking about.
Kerry Carpenter or Lane Thomas or somebody else. Maybe Jimenez hasn’t done much or somebody else like that. Having some big games when it meant the most, you know, to carry them forward. And I’m just fired up for it. The Tigers and Cleveland is great. It really is. And I’m watching the Royals beating the Yankees last night and loving that.
David Campbell (10:12.189)
It is. Two old school franchises going at it.
Terry (10:19.66)
CBS is probably trying to figure out how do we figure or whoever that got the network is right. How do we fix this game? We cannot have Detroit or Cleveland facing the Royals in the final four. We can’t have this. We have to put those games on the 10 in the morning. we, you know, I mean, they just, they just would not be able to handle it.
David Campbell (10:38.185)
Yeah. Well, I have, I have one idea that I, I don’t know if we’ll see it or not, but I, know, to see school yesterday, you were talking to Terry, but just about what an impressive performance that was. it made me think of when you see videos of these robots they have, they can shoot basketballs where it’s just the same motion over and over. And he came out, he would walk out of the dugout, throw like 15 to 18 pitches and then walk back to the dugout and nothing broke his.
Terry (10:49.495)
Yeah.
Terry (10:55.278)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
David Campbell (11:06.995)
Routine and I think the only guy who stepped out against him stepped out of the box was nailer Yeah, he might have done it twice, but I think the Guardians might be Yeah, but if everybody does they’ve got to do something to kind of stop him from being so locked in and It’s it’s just a small thing But I just would like to see them do something to just change his rhythm just a little bit to get him a little off and maybe just annoy him
Terry (11:16.11)
You can only do it once really, mean.
Terry (11:33.742)
Yeah.
David Campbell (11:33.939)
And I don’t know what they would do, but it’s worth trying because yesterday it was just like a robot out there. It really was. It was something else. He has, yeah.
Terry (11:36.674)
I get it. Yeah. Well, he’s had a lot of robot games. I mean, he’s basically won the triple crown for a pitcher. Most wins, lowest DRA, most strikeouts.
David Campbell (11:52.021)
Very impressive and yeah, he brings it in 96, 98 miles an hour the whole game. So all right, again, today they’re off in Detroit working out. We’ve got games three and four on Wednesday and Thursday. Friday will be an off day and then game five if it comes to it will be Saturday at Progressive Field. hey, we should talk about Terry Francona with the Reds real quick. Terry?
Terry (12:14.446)
Mm-hmm. I wasn’t surprised because, when Frank Kona, after he was fired by Boston, he spent a year, that’s when he worked with Cleveland’s front office. And he also just spent, no, I’m sorry. He didn’t. That was after he got fired by Philadelphia, but he just spent a year after he was fired by Boston. He did some TV work and worked on getting his body back into shape. And that’s exactly what he did this time. This guy, I love Tito.
on so many different levels, but he basically has no life but baseball. I mean, he doesn’t, he’s not married. You he’s got kids, his, mean, when we would ask him like, where’s your favorite place to eat? He gives us the ballpark because during the season, that’s all I ever eat in Cleveland is there. Or he goes over to the casino late at night. He likes to play cards sometimes to decompress and know, late at night it’s open.
And they know what couple of Tito sandwiches or things. And he plays some poker or whatever. And that was the other place to eat. And on the road, he, lot of times really he was because he’s dealt with so many physical problems over the years. It’s it’s room service or that. So he really hasn’t, you know, he’s, he’s not a guy just to go out and do a lot of stuff. And the off season, he lives in Tucson and he usually is hanging around the Arizona basketball program. He loves basketball.
And he goes to their practices and their games. sometimes goes to an NBA game, but really that’s it. So he, he misses it. And I think he, I believe he’s 65 and the, you know, the role, the residents, a great hire for the reds because he’s exactly the kind of guy you want. But I think the reds are exactly the kind of team he needs a younger team with talent, not a big media, situation where he would be under the gun. And.
You know, he could go do his thing and he’s got a brand new audience for all his stories and everything else. Not only in the media, but among the players. And the first thing he said, he says, we will be organized. I promise you that. And that’s one thing Tito’s, you know, Tito’s teams are organized and disciplined. And, know, he, you know, we saw they didn’t, how many, how many discipline problems that they have in his 11 years? I mean, they had one with Frank with a Bauer.
Terry (14:41.742)
He threw the ball over the fence and he was gone 48 hours later. But I mean, that pretty much was it. you didn’t see guys dog in it on the basis. You didn’t see much of anything. And so now I’m not saying I didn’t follow the Reds well enough to know what was going on with David Bielder or whatever. I didn’t hear anything really bad, but he, you know, it was a great hire for them and a great thing for him. So, but it wasn’t like,
He wanted to get out of Cleveland or anything of that sort. He had reconstructive shoulder surgery. That’s four to six months. He told me that. and he knew that he just physically, he felt couldn’t do the job on top of that. now I don’t know what else they found. Cause remember Tito always would tell us this is the way he’s going to have done the off season. Then he comes to spring training and he throws in like two other things they had done, but he had double hernia surgery along with the reconstructive shoulder surgery.
David Campbell (15:30.26)
Right.
Terry (15:33.838)
And then all of sudden he comes and goes, yeah, well they worked on my foot and they had a staff infection. mean, he would always have these horrible things. He’s like walking Gray’s Anatomy or something. yeah, it’s like, yeah, the engine light is on all over the place. And I mean, that’ll be, you know, be interesting to see. got a three year contract plus a team option. Be interested to see if, if he makes it. I don’t mean to be there, but it’s, he knows himself. And I think he also thought, I’m 65. If I’m going to manage again,
David Campbell (15:42.389)
It’s like when you bring your car in and they find like 47 other things wrong with it.
Terry (16:02.958)
I better do it now. He did TV, but he didn’t particularly like it that one year. I mean, he thought he loved the people, you know, hanging around the game, but he didn’t want to be talking to some guy or, you know, with a microphone. He wanted to be in the dugout.
David Campbell (16:18.281)
And he’s back and I’m sure he’ll be riding his scooter over to the Great American Ballpark and he’s got a young star. He’s got a young star to build around and a lot of good things going on. So it’s a good fit. And it’ll make the, as Hoynsey wrote, it’ll make the Ohio Cup pretty interesting next year when the Guardians and Reds play. So, all right, let’s take a break, Terry. And when we get back, we are going to get into the Browns.
Terry (16:19.288)
He’s back.
Terry (16:23.752)
Yeah.
Terry (16:45.272)
Yes.
David Campbell (16:45.363)
So much to talk about. So all right, we’ll do that. And we got lot more coming your way when we return on Terry’s Talking.
David Campbell (17:46.719)
Hey, we’re back on Terry’s talking. Before I forget, I want to mention, don’t forget to sign up for Terry’s newsletter. You can find it at cleveland.com slash Pluto. There’s a blue bar at the top of the page there. If you click on that, you can subscribe. Terry’s newsletter comes out every Wednesday at noon. Always great stories, thoughts, behind the scenes stuff that Terry shares with everybody in the newsletter. It’s a great read. Check it out. So all right, Terry, the Browns are one in four.
Things are not going good. They’re playing at the Eagles on Sunday. I know you’re hearing from some fans. I have a couple letters here. One is from Ed Cohen, long time listener of the podcast. Let’s hear it from Ed. Ed says, after the latest embarrassment, Terry wrote, they knew if Watson struggled early, the wacko for Flacco fans would fill the stadium with chants for the backup QB. My response, so what?
Terry (18:26.38)
Let’s read it.
David Campbell (18:40.083)
The job of everyone in this organization is to win football games, not to coddle the Sean Watson’s feelings. Smart organizations understand this. This is not a smart organization. If this team is one in eight at the bye week, they need to fire Stefanski, who is the most overrated coach in the NFL. Either this team doesn’t have enough talent to beat the Cowboys, Giants, Raiders or Commanders, or the coach is doing an unacceptable job of managing the talent he’s been given. I suspect Andrew Barry will see it as the latter.
Terry (18:40.108)
Mm-hmm.
Terry (18:54.789)
Hahaha!
David Campbell (19:06.909)
In any sport franchises fire their head coaches or managers no matter what accolades they’ve been given when they see that the coach is doing a lousy job with the resources he’s been given. That’s been apparent here for a long time. Counting the playoff game. All right, we’re getting it. Counting the playoff game in preseason, the Browns are one in nine in their last 10 games. But we’re not counting free season. So anyway, he says the buck stops at the head coach’s desk. Remember he hired all his assistants. It’s time to hold him accountable.
Terry (19:18.254)
Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. What did they do last year?
Terry (19:27.512)
Okay, great. Yeah, please.
Terry (19:37.026)
Well, there’s a couple interesting things in there.
David Campbell (19:37.277)
So anyway.
Terry (19:43.052)
With the Browns, there’ll be a couple things I wonder if we ever will find out the full truth and nothing but the truth. So help me God. Who really pushed the hardest for Deshaun Watson? I always write it’s an ownership decision because anytime you bring in a player with that much baggage and that much public relations problems, that’s on ownership. The same way.
For example, if a team would have brought in Trevor Bauer, that would be still an ownership one. But did Barry pound the table for him or Stefanski for Deshaun Watson? The answer is I don’t know. So that’s one. Number two, talked about hiring the assistants. The decision really to get Ken Dorsey and get rid of Van Pelt, was that Stefanski’s original idea or is this one of their?
They have their meetings, they get together, and it’s like, we’ve got to salvage this quarterback. So those are things that, this is the product of when you make, I remember a top NFL executive told me this and I wrote it, what he called the biggest high risk, possibly high reward trade he had ever seen. And this guy was like around my age, 60s. And so.
when you talk about six draft picks, three first round picks, plus the contract, plus the public relations hit, plus the fact the guy hadn’t played for a year. I mean, it just goes on and on in the negative column.
David Campbell (21:25.477)
The thing about Sunday’s game in Washington, at Washington Terry was it’s the kind of game that changes careers in Cleveland for players and coaches being replaced by P when, when things go south, this is the day. And for, for the Browns and their fans, like it was so sad because. Jaden Daniels is a younger, better to Sean Watson right now.
Terry (21:32.621)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (21:52.019)
That’s what they thought they were getting when they made the trade and he went out there and just he didn’t even have to play the fourth quarter because because he dominated them so thoroughly and the Browns are like wait this is what we thought we were getting when we gave up three draft picks and now they have this guy and look who we have.
Terry (22:09.442)
You have the lowest rated quarterback in the NFL among starters, except I guess Bryce Young is lower. I don’t know if he’s back started. No, he didn’t start last week yet. So among starters, he’s your lowest. That’s exactly right.
David Campbell (22:12.351)
Yeah.
David Campbell (22:24.317)
Okay, so I guess my two questions, Terry, are there’s kind of two things to ask you. What will they do with the Sean Watson, which I think we got some indication of that already. And then what should they do with just the Sean Watson? first of all, what do you think they will do?
Terry (22:39.726)
I think they’re just gonna play them and play them and play them. Here’s why, you’re at year three of the five-year contract. It’s the old thing, you’re in deep, you’re one in four, your rods are making a play-offs, I don’t know, probably 7 % or something like that. So this is time to find out about Watson for sure. So when the season’s over, you can sit down and say, look, we gave them two and a half years, because they only played half of the one.
And this is where we’re at.
Now, will they do that? I don’t know. they’re there. They went all, you don’t, you don’t fire an offensive coaching staff when the team was 10th and scoring and won quarterbacks of four different, I’m sorry. Excuse me. When games are four different quarterbacks and you fire all offensive coaches and you’re 10th and scoring because they didn’t do a good job. They did.
And you don’t change that office.
David Campbell (23:41.493)
And that’s why, that’s why, I mean, I, I predict that 11 wins for this team. It’s like, why should they be worse? Right? That was what we were saying before the season. So yes, absolutely.
Terry (23:47.938)
Yeah.
Yeah. Right. And, I don’t want to hear all this. I’m tired of hearing Jack Conklin. Jack Conklin hasn’t played a full game since 2022. So please. Yeah. Stop. Stop. I mean, and at one time he was a really good player, you know, in like Karen check, but just it, it’s not happening. And, and the fact is last year I’ve gone through the whole stats before the guy who played the most snaps at taco was the watt Jones. Then you had,
David Campbell (23:59.283)
He’s like the James Karen Jack of the the Bronx.
Terry (24:19.438)
Christian Guerin and you had James Hudson and you had, there was another guy that, no, it wasn’t Blake Hans, but somebody like that. They all were above 40%. They all between 40, 50%. They didn’t have, no, sorry. Jed Wilfs, Jed Wilfs played 45%. The one played 55 % Guerin play 45 % and Hudson played like 40%. So those are the four guys that’s who played tackle last year. So stop with this.
David Campbell (24:25.737)
Blake Hans?
Ha ha!
Terry (24:49.08)
that they don’t have that supply tackle. And they did not have their quarterback getting destroyed.
So this is a coaching thing. Now, to be fair, know, Wills is trying to come off of a knee surgery and so is DeJuan Jones and they’re not the same player. But I always thought Deshaun is very difficult to block for and I’ve seen nothing to change my mind.
David Campbell (25:19.381)
All right, well, so Lance Rysland, who is the former football coach at Garfield Heights High School, he does a lot of film breakdowns for us. We asked him to break down who was responsible for the seven sacks on Sunday. And he’s got a post coming out, I think tomorrow on Wednesday, but all right, Zach Zinter won. Zinter and Posick combined for one. Ford won. He blames one on Stefanski because he says the…
Terry (25:30.668)
Okay great, what did he come up with?
All right.
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (25:46.517)
play call was not right and there was nobody open and it ended up in a sack. So he’s giving one to Stefanski. He’s giving one to a combination of Wills and Batonia where I think they didn’t execute a swap of a twist properly. Right. And then he’s giving two to Watson. So out of the seven, there’s one for Stefanski, two for Watson, and then one for Ford and the other are the offensive line. So that was interesting.
Terry (25:59.585)
Yeah, they’re real good at being confused.
Terry (26:04.653)
Yeah.
Terry (26:10.328)
Yeah.
David Campbell (26:12.405)
and getting back to my original question, Terry, I thought that third quarter series when they had first in goal from the two was just an encapsulation of why they’re not benching Deshaun Watson. And, and Stefanski could not get the word no out of his mouth fast enough on Sunday when they asked him, are you considering quarterback change? All So it was first in goal from the two, right? With about 14 minutes left in the third quarter, Zach Zinter false start on a Terry Pluto pre-snap penalty special. Right.
Terry (26:18.221)
Yeah.
Terry (26:27.66)
Faster.
Terry (26:34.382)
Mm-hmm.
Terry (26:40.948)
I’ve got the whole breakdown, but go ahead. Yeah.
David Campbell (26:42.549)
All right, we’ll do that in a minute. right, so that was first, that was the first snap. The second, so that takes them to first and goal from the second, from the seven. The next play, there’s 16 seconds on the play clock and there’s guys still coming into the huddle with 16 seconds on the play clock. With 13 seconds left, the Browns break the huddle and you see Stefanski yelling cause he can’t talk to the quarterback on his headset after 15, right? So he’s yelling, let’s go, let’s go. They get to the line of scrimmage with four seconds left.
Terry (26:49.857)
Mm-hmm.
Terry (26:55.276)
Nice one! we’re over.
Terry (27:05.4)
Yeah.
Yeah.
David Campbell (27:11.653)
on the play clock and they are not going to get the playoff. Stefanski runs over and calls a timeout because he sees they’re not going to get the play call. So timeout coming out of a timeout, they call the perfect play, the perfect play, right? It’s a beautiful mesh route on the left side with Cooper and with Amari Cooper and Jerry, Judy, and Judy breaks wide open right away off the crossing routes. And it’s a wonderful pocket and Deshaun Watson is standing back there. And I swear to God, I could have thrown the pass.
Terry (27:21.134)
You
Terry (27:26.358)
Yeah.
Terry (27:34.255)
And.
Terry (27:40.418)
Yeah.
David Campbell (27:40.617)
That’s how wide open it was. If you’ve seen me throw, you’ll know what I’m saying. I don’t have a great arm, but it was wide open right there. He didn’t see it. He pulls the ball down, runs into that sack where he just got buried in the chest when he got spun around. Okay. So that’s on Watson, right? Okay. So next play, Jerry Judy is wide open in the end zone on the other side, on the right side of the end zone and drops it. Okay. Then there’s a throw away.
Terry (27:55.416)
Yeah.
Terry (28:06.668)
Yeah. Yeah.
David Campbell (28:10.387)
And then on the fourth and goal, they have 12 guys in the huddle and Watson walks off. And so we have a pre-snap penalty. We have a late play call coming in. We have a quarterback misreading a wide open guy. We’ve got a receiver dropping the ball on a touchdown. And we have a delay of game because an assistant coach sent in the wrong personnel grouping. It was like everything all at once.
Terry (28:13.854)
Yeah, you can never have enough.
Yeah.
Terry (28:26.51)
I’m gonna have to drop.
Terry (28:35.362)
Yep.
David Campbell (28:38.655)
That’s why I think they’re not like, the quarterback is holding us back and we got to bench him, like because of all this other stuff. Like it’s all there in that one sequence of plays.
Terry (28:45.762)
Yeah.
But I will also say do not neglect the investment made in him. It’s not, no, it’s not. And the other thing is it’s not like James Winston is a guy they’re thinking long-term for. Now I have to admit the, the pure football guy in me and I had two football people. always say this is my worst sport in terms of valuation that so, but I do rely on people who are paid to make decisions that I could able to talk to and.
David Campbell (28:54.267)
for sure. Yeah.
Terry (29:18.04)
Two of them told me that they believe Winston would do very well as to Faskey’s old throw it downfield play action offense. Yeah, Winston can move around, but he is a pocket passer with a really good arm, you know, and we saw what Flacco could do. So.
Now I ask you this Dave Campbell, if they didn’t have the big contract and all of the investment in Watson, would they have switched by now? And I think perhaps they would.
David Campbell (29:49.95)
I do too.
Terry (29:51.576)
but it’s a different thing. So now they’re into, we gotta find out totally about Watson, because this year’s probably shot, then they won’t say any of this. And so we’re just gonna keep playing him. All right, since we are into malfeasance and so on, I have a list of the people who have my favorite thing, which is of course, pre-snap penalties. pre-snap penalties, we had one for Jerry Judy, we had one.
for DeWan Jones, we had one for Zinter and we had one for Wills and we also had, well it’s not pre-snap but it’s almost as bad, a legal man downfield for POSIC. They needed a good day like that because they’re being pressed by Miami for the most pre-snap penalties. But the Browns are still number one at 23, Miami is at 21 and Pittsburgh, which surprised me a little bit, they’re at 20, they’re third. And if you wanna kinda
Who has the most pre-snap penalties on a team this year? Your guess. We have a… Yeah.
David Campbell (30:56.202)
on the offense. I’m going to say.
David Campbell (31:05.391)
No, it can’t be Zex Center. It’s gotta be… POSIC? I’m just guessing. I don’t know. okay.
Terry (31:07.009)
No.
Terry (31:10.862)
He’s close, but no, it’s the Juan Jones, Nimposek, and then defense it’s Garrett. I’m not gonna even there because he always has this, but they all kind of have four.
David Campbell (31:17.079)
That’s why I asked, because if it was offensive defense.
Terry (31:24.098)
I mean, I’m just sick of this. I watch.
You know, I realize now and then is Eric Mangini story hour, but I watched Eric Mangini take over a totally undisciplined team. And then his two years there, they were like in the top three and fewest penalties. And, and he always made the differentiate between, you know, pre-snap and kind of what he called action penalties, you know, you, unless it’s holding it all that the only thing he hated was a personal files. You know, you throw a punch or something.
David Campbell (31:51.817)
holding or yeah.
Terry (31:58.318)
Because he said again, in his mind that I agree, that’s kind of lack of attention and self control. But the rest of this stuff, that just happens. So I do not see and Jimmy Watkins I think didn’t he do a thing where the Stavaskis teams, I think have been in the top three to top five in penalties about his whole time here.
Terry (32:21.878)
I need to do the breakdown on that to see how many were the pre snaps. but overall, so that is the thing that I think he says that, but I don’t think they stress it. You know, you in part of coaching is you get what you stress, especially on things like, pre snap penalty being lined up correctly. it’s really, really, really annoying. And go ahead.
David Campbell (32:44.201)
And also, Terry, to just build on that, they’re not even doing all the shifts and the motions that we thought we were going to see this season with Dorsey coming in, trying to get advantages and move guys around. They’re keeping it simple, and they’re still having some issues. So, yeah.
Terry (32:49.75)
No
Terry (33:01.132)
Yeah. And the fact is this, we’re talking about Deshaun Watson like he’s Deshaun Kaiser. And by that, mean, you’re looking for any glimmer of hope. There is no thought to like, he’s good enough to lift the cast up around him. He’s not doing that. That’s a fact. We had halfs.
Hats off football that I mean the brilliant half of 14 to 14 against Baltimore his last game last year Was but right but he was six of 20 passing in the first half He had a brilliant half against Washington his first year, but that was their first after he looked like he never saw football before I mean it became it looked like that first game he played in Houston where the first game got now He had really good total games because I did look it up. I think they beat Tennessee like 27 to 3 or something
He was really good that day. And they also beat Arizona soundly last year. And he was very good that day all the way through. But, you know, and there were some other games where he wasn’t bad, but I don’t, you know, I just don’t, I don’t see him as a guy who makes players better.
David Campbell (34:12.895)
Yeah, mean, here’s.
David Campbell (34:16.981)
And here’s the most concerning thing. I think if you’re a Browns fan is that if you see a quarterback who’s throwing high a lot, or maybe the ball is off target or like there’s things that happen mechanically, maybe your feet are wrong or that you can fix, but he like, he’s not seeing guys. He’s not seeing the field and he’s not seeing guys and he’s pulling the ball down fast, trying to run in a way that you would see a rookie do. Like somebody, you know what I’m saying? It’s just, it’s, it’s very.
Terry (34:25.144)
Yeah.
Terry (34:36.056)
Yeah.
David Campbell (34:47.251)
discouraging as a fan to see that from somebody who’s been around as long as he has.
Terry (34:52.75)
Now I’m not saying he’s like bad, like Deshaun Kaiser or whatever, but we’re talking about it like he’s a, like he is a rookie quarterback and we’re looking, the line is not doing this or they’re not doing that or they’re not helping him here. when you bring in a high quality athletic quarterback like him, who’s been decorated and, and, he overcomes a lot. I mean, one of the things I was told when the Brown signed him.
is that he had a horrendous offensive line in Houston his last year when he the NFL in passing and he still led the NFL in passing and he threw for all the sessions despite being under duress and everything else. And I believe before that year they traded DeAndre Hopkins because that’s what started him being very upset about things that led to his request for the trade and that kind of stuff. I can’t remember if it was before that year or after that year they traded Hopkins. But regardless,
He was not surrounded by a ton of talent. Maybe better than talent than here, but I’m not sure. So we’ll see what they do, but they’re not benching him. got, too deep into this and they’re too far along. And of course, Joe Flacco threw for 350 yards.
David Campbell (36:06.24)
to end it on a positive note.
Terry (36:07.558)
Kareem hunt comes off the street and runs for a hundred yards by the way now you talk about what I really think they thought they were getting not to to not completely to the area of excellence as Mahomes But Mahomes is one of these guys like Tom Brady, whatever he makes players better He makes them better
David Campbell (36:30.355)
All right. and I mean, Holmes is in another league. I just think, I think the Browns would settle for just good to, to, to strong, just something better than a little better than good. Like they’re not getting it right now. And it’s the receivers are getting discouraged because they’re not getting the ball when they’re open. The defense is getting discouraged because they come up with a big turnover and nothing happens after it. It’s just, it’s, it’s bringing everything down. You can see it. And.
Terry (36:34.402)
Yes.
Terry (36:38.616)
Sure.
Terry (36:48.728)
Boy, you could see that. Yeah.
Terry (36:59.278)
I would really take Dorsey and Stefanski into a room and say, you give me 20 plays you want to run that fit into a coherent system that we’re going to play? Whether it’s the spread off and stuff, or it’s go back to the stuff that they ran here with other players. And by the way, of course, a strong argument can be made.
Deshaun Watson was a better quarterback in the Stefanski system last year than he is in this mishmash of whatever this is this year. So I want, as I would just say, I want to see it. I don’t want to hear being too tricky or whatever. What is it? And tell me why this is the best system at one and four four we are with who we have.
But you’re correct in that it’s like, well, we got to change the offensive coaches, even though we were tense in the league in scoring. I’m talking, speaking for the brown because we got to make the Sean better. We’ve got to go do all these things. We’ve got to totally abandon the running game to try and make sure that this works. mean, it’s just, it’s so frustrating. That’s why I’m so glad the guardians are in the playoffs.
David Campbell (38:16.437)
All right, well, the Browns are at Philadelphia on Sunday. It’s the last game of a three game stretch of their schedule that is on the road. And that will be a fascinating matchup on Sunday. And then they’re back home after that. So, hey Terry, let’s spend a few minutes. I did want to talk about Danny Coughlin who passed away over the weekend and you knew him very well. You wrote a lovely touching column about your relationship with him and just what kind of guy he was. And I just wanted to
Terry (38:33.294)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (38:46.409)
give you couple minutes to talk about that real quick because he made such an impact in Cleveland sports.
Terry (38:50.688)
Yeah, well, Danny, he started as a high school writer at the Plain Deer and in the early seventies, I was working at the Benedictine high school Bennett, the high school paper. And that’s back when you would call in the results of your games. So that was one of my jobs calling the football games for Benedictine. So would call in a one day, Cogman answers, you know, Cogman here sports, you know that like
Danny Cogman, cause I was ready. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, you know, Terry Pueblo playing, you know, calling in Terry, how you doing? Hey, you you got the, we were waiting for your game. You got the game. And so he took the stuff and I think I got him one other time. And then I ran into him and, told him, called the stuff from, from Benedict and whether he remembered or not, didn’t matter yet. You know, he had the Irish Barney. He faked it great. And I think I saw him like a championship or playoff game or something. And so I kind of got to know him. And then when I was in.
college, one of my part-time jobs in the summer is that they had a pro soccer team in Cleveland outdoor called the Cleveland Cobras. And, I was at Cleveland state then, and, during basketball season, kept, I kept stats for the basketball team and they paid me for that. And the guy, the guy named John Irvine was, in charge of that. And it turned out he was the general manager of the Cobra soccer team. You know, everybody had.
multiple jobs. So he brought me on to do PR for them. And so I knew nothing about PR, but you know, started from there. And Danny Coghlan came out a couple of times to write about the Cobras in the summer. And Tim Rogers, Tim later worked at the Plain Deer. I got to know those guys and Tim Rogers helped me get a job at the old Cleveland Press answering the phone. I tried at the Plain Deer several times. They wouldn’t hire me. Danny was pushing for me for that.
so, but when it came time for me to get out of school and get a, try to get a full-time job, Tim Rogers, Dan Cogman, a guy named Chuck Day were at the press from the press. all were my, references. And I was told when Danny, while I got hired in Greensboro and a guy named Erwin Small was there, he said, boy, those guys all loved you. He that guy, the Irish guy Cogman, he made you sound like you’re Grantlin Rice. And I don’t know who else.
Terry (41:08.31)
I mean, so he, heavy sell from Danny Coghlan helped me get my first job. And then a few years later, I’m covering the Orioles for the Baltimore evening sun. Danny is now in his second year doing baseball, a horrible marriage there. Danny Coghlan was an elegant writer who needed a lot of time to do things and very creative and baseball is a Mr. Big volume, get it done quick sport. And so he was just dying out on the baseball beat.
And I remember we’re in Baltimore and we got together for lunch and he goes, you got to come home. I’m going to get you my job because nobody on the staff wants this job. And if I, the only way I’m to get off it is I got to find somebody. So when the Orioles and came into Cleveland, whatever the year he took me into the point of Dior introduced me to all these people. I, he’s a Cleveland guy. He’s covered the Orioles. And so that’s how I came back, came to the point of Dior the first time Danny opened the doors and they, and they hired me. So that was.
I owe Danny a lot. then of course, Danny, what he did, a mistake he made in his career, 1981, I believe, he left the Plain Deer to go to the Cleveland press as columnist. He wanted to be a columnist like the job I have now, or back then, Hal Levoitz and Chuck Heaton were at it, and felt kind of blocked. The press hired him, they threw some money at him, but Hal Levoitz and others said, it’s not gonna last. And you he was there barely over a year and it folded.
And that led to Danny going into TV. And of course he had a long career in TV, right up to the end. Cause Friday night he’s covered Ignatius and Ed’s for part time at the age of 86. Then I get an email from a guy who says, know, I, Friday, I saw him Saturday. He says, you know, yesterday I got the pleasure of spending some time with Dan Cogman, his grandson and my son play for the same eighth grade football team.
David Campbell (42:59.541)
Mm.
Terry (42:59.8)
We’re waiting for the game to start. They never start on time. We got to talking about the guardians and him going to St. Ed’s and the St. Ed’s Ignatius game and all that. And then, you know, he gave, I gave him updates on Blimey’s pitch count cause he was listening to the game and you know, all that he was, he goes, Mr. Connell got animated during the game when the other coaches are coming with the ref slowing down the game. Danny yelled, I got other grandkids to get to play ball.
David Campbell (43:14.803)
Ha
David Campbell (43:24.041)
classic.
Terry (43:29.336)
So that’s classic Danny. And then he went out to eat with some friends. And then I was told by somebody close to him, basically he went home, went to bed and died. I mean, that’s it. They found him dead Sunday morning. Yeah.
David Campbell (43:42.581)
Wow. There’s a, see some people, Terry, they go on the air and their personality changes, like they ramp up and they’re totally different. But Danny Coughlin, like I didn’t get to meet him very often, but he was the same guy all the time. Like he was just, you talk about people lighting up a room. When he walked into a room and he lit a room up and everybody wanted to go shake his hand and.
Terry (43:49.205)
Yeah
Terry (43:55.393)
Yeah.
Terry (44:02.07)
Yeah, he was friends to everybody. You never were quite sure what he’s going to say. I will tell you that. I mean, it can really come out of nowhere with some of this series.
David Campbell (44:08.197)
yeah, what was that?
When Dick Zunth, the long time, really well respected and liked high school writer passed away, Danny spoke at his funeral and typical stories. He went up and he said, I haven’t seen this many priests at a mass since the Pope died. said, he always had a great joke or a funny comment.
Terry (44:24.078)
Yeah.
Terry (44:28.814)
Yeah, right. It’s like, I mean, just this time. Yeah. Well, he loved giving eulogies, know, the Irish tradition too. And so, but Danny was was really there for me. I mean, he, he wrote some books, basically kind of collections of essays. And, then he he’s the only guy I know that held book signings and bars. He took his books, he sold them himself and went to the bars. And, you know, I’m not sure by the end of the
David Campbell (44:37.833)
Sure.
Terry (44:58.894)
the night whether he actually made any money. Cause I think some of the money he made off the books, he kind of was buying everybody else drinks, but he had a, he had a grand old time. And, and those two of us from say, especially the Danny, I think started in 69, something like that. No, 1964. He was there 64 to 81. And, and then just the way he was doing high school sports, he loved high school sports. the other guy sent me an email and he was umpiring a game in the
David Campbell (45:05.523)
You
Terry (45:27.616)
And so Danny was in his seventies and he was out covering some high school game for channel eight in baseball. So there you go.
David Campbell (45:35.273)
Well, the Cleveland sports community has lost a great one there and condolences to his family. One of a kind. So all right, Terry, I did want to spend a few minutes talking about the Cavs. They do open their preseason tonight. Again, we’re taping this late on Tuesday, October 8th, and they are playing the Bulls tonight at the Fieldhouse. What are you looking for from Kenny Atkinson’s offense and kind of what are you hoping to see here? I know it’s only preseason, but we can kind of get a little taste of what it’s going to be, right?
Terry (45:47.852)
Mm-hmm.
Terry (46:03.98)
Well, I hope it’s better than Ken Dorsey’s. I mean, seriously, you know, this, and by the way, there were reasons to change the offense, with, J and I didn’t, was not in favor of firing JB, but you know, they, they could really get stagnant and that. want to see if he’s going to get, not only a quicker pace, but more ball movement. So he promises to play 10 to 11 guys, not just in the preseason, but the regular season. And I think that would be.
and improvement. JB tended to have a tighter rotation. So, and he promises to kind of unleash mobility with not just taking a bunch of three pointers, but driving to the rim more, doing more in the open court. The code word is usage. I’m anxious just to see what it looks like, because you fired a very good coach who each year there was better than the previous year.
You know, maybe didn’t get to where you want it to as fast as you wanted to go, but you went from 22 to 44 wins. Second year, first 44 wins, you go to the play in tournament next year. You went 51, you go to the first round of playoffs and then next year you went 48, but you go to the second round of the playoffs. I mean, that is, you know, clear progress. And so, and Atkinson knows two things. One that this is a tremendous opportunity often, especially Gowdy Kenny Atkinson who
I never got past the first round when he did coach the nets. usually that guy doesn’t get a job like this. And secondly, he knows there’s real pressure. I mean, this is supposed to be a team that’s, you know, contending with the Celtics and whoever else you want to mention in New York and the East, to come out of it. And so I do like Atkinson. I’ve talked to him a couple of times. and I think that,
He’s got a real good feel for things and When they when they fired JB and the different candidates they had he was my choice because I liked how the offense ran with him and with the nets and I thought that he Seen to connect well with the players, so we will see But remember they’re good. They’re good David. They’re good. I mean, it’s a good team I know they didn’t do much in the offseason, but it’s a good team you’re interested in
David Campbell (48:20.533)
Yeah, I’m interested. good, Terry. Yeah. No.
David Campbell (48:29.333)
No, I was just going to say like, there’s, there’s things that we get the sense they might run that like Golden State does with Steph Curry, that they might try to do maybe with Garland, running him through different screens and having them go one side of the floor, the other looking for a, a curl or something. So I’m interested to see how Darius Garland works into the mix. And the other thing I’m really interested in is like, what is the, and maybe the rotation increases part of this, but what is going to happen to the defense?
Terry (48:39.928)
Mm-hmm.
Terry (48:56.896)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (48:57.714)
Can they still have a top five level defense and do what he wants to do on the offensive? And that would be.
Terry (49:03.03)
I know that’s why he was adamant and Kobe Altman too. We are not treading the two big guys because that is your backbone of your defense. That’s a good point on Garland. And I’m going to tell you something right now. It is so hard when a guy is used to having the ball for them to learn to move without the ball. Secondly, running around picks and other things without the ball, you have to be in tremendous physical condition. Steph Curry.
is a phenomenon, not just because of his shooting, his conditioning, and to make those shots from 30 feet or whatever, because watch him, he’s nonstop. Furthermore, when he comes around those picks, yeah, he could shoot it from 29 feet and then he turns around and he has all these nice little bank shot moves to the rim, know, floaters and everything. He is relentless and he’s not a total waste on defense stuff. know, Garland is not good defensively.
I have not seen him move very well without the ball and he’s going to have to show that he could do it if that’s going to be one of their plans. And I know why they’re thinking about it because it’s a question that I asked Acton sent at the press conference and which he dodged completely was this. said, Kenny, it’s an amateur opinion, but I’m just telling you, I thought your offense, the CAS offense last year was the best with Donovan at the point.
That’s when Garland was hurt and you had everybody kind of moving around him. I always talk, we talked about that last year. He was the sun and the solar system revolved around him. And he didn’t deny that he went into a Darius Garland’s a talented player. And, know, he talked a little bit of what we did with how we can make, make it easier for Darius and create more shots, whatever. And see in that situation, it’s hard to get, you know, a decent amount of follow up questions, but I could tell.
He was struggling through that question. He looked at the same films of the games that you and I watched. And he also know what’s his job to make that work with Garland and Mitchell. So he wasn’t going to acknowledge the obvious because he started by saying, well, in my professional opinion, is Garland’s a really good player. In other words, he didn’t get anywhere near the yes, but they were better with Mitchell because he knows that’s true. So now he has to figure out if he can make it happen another way.
David Campbell (51:03.125)
Hmm.
David Campbell (51:30.591)
Well, I mean, saw some Darius Garland workout video over the summer that he was putting out. don’t know if part of the orders over the summer were like lose a little bit of weight and get in better shape because this is what we’re going to do or what, but yeah, I’m really excited to see what it’s going to look like. So.
Terry (51:36.311)
Mm-hmm.
Sure. Yeah.
Terry (51:45.59)
And we have to see if Garland can stay healthy. We say that every year, but that’s exciting. Look, this is a good team. I mean, I want to, you know, both press conferences for the players and that, I mean, and Mitchell, by the way, Mitchell is such a class act. It just is just to see him. And I hope, you know, he could stay healthy too, cause he’s had some injury issues in his career, but my goodness, I mean, he was at the guardians get me. He’s all these people.
David Campbell (51:50.024)
and not get hit in the face so much.
Terry (52:13.078)
I think when he came to terms with the fact he wasn’t going to New York and early last year, because I had an agent friend of mine who laid out for me, I didn’t write it because it got to be very, very deep in the weeds of the salary cap. Why the Knicks? No way can make this happen unless they want to trade Jalen Brunson for him or something. So he said, not what you do is you sit down with the agent for Donovan and you show him.
And you show them these things, maybe they did that. Or maybe the agent himself drew it up and said, okay, we’re not going to the next. Do you really want to go to Brooklyn? I think the answer is no. Okay. Now, how do you like it here? I’ve really liked it here. So fine. We’ll wait till the opportune moment and sign here. And I think he just gave himself over to that and
they were able to get them for, whether it’s on three-year extension or whatever it is, so excellent.
David Campbell (53:15.775)
Yeah, Jesus were five, six Cavs players at the Guardians game yesterday. There’s a really good video out there. If you can find it, I think it’s Niang and Struz were sitting two or three rows up from the field. when John Kenzie-Noel had that throw to second base, they jumped out of their seats and they’re like, so that was kind of fun to see that.
Terry (53:18.935)
Yep.
Terry (53:30.936)
Yeah.
Terry (53:36.11)
Yeah. And see, and Mitchell’s good at kind of team outings and, and stuff like that. Mitchell was a big proponent of Atkinson. must have had some really good meetings too, cause it sounds like, you know, a lot of the texting, all this stuff, at, let’s put this way in terms of pre job preparation and pre training camp preparation and connecting with the players, you know, Atkinson gets an A plus in that.
David Campbell (54:04.437)
All right, well, as we said, the Cavs play tonight, October 8th against the Bulls at home. Then they’re playing Thursday, another home game against the Pacers. And then next Wednesday the 16th, they’re at Detroit. The 18th, they’re at Chicago. And then the regular season, the real stuff starts on Wednesday the 23rd. The Cavs have a game at Toronto. Who’s that?
Terry (54:18.902)
You know who’s very excited today? David Campbell. You know, one of our favorite listeners, Kathleen Thompson, Cavs number one fan. she’s very, sometimes she just send me an email with just like Cavs and capital letters and explanation points. And, and, Ka, Kathleen, is legally blind and she’s listened to the Cavs forever. She was very close with Joe Tate.
David Campbell (54:28.137)
Big Cavs fan, yep.
David Campbell (54:35.125)
the
Terry (54:44.63)
And so she just loves the basketball and loves it. And, I know there’s a lot of other fans too, but, Kathleen always loves it. We say hello and we say hello, Kathleen, get ready for your season.
David Campbell (54:58.005)
Enjoy the season and we love the enthusiasm. Keep spreading the enthusiasm. All right, Terry, I think we can wrap up here. We have a reader letter. And again, if you want to hit us with a question, comment, event about the Browns, as we’ve heard today, you can send it all to sports at cleveland.com and put Terry’s talking in the subject line. We will get to it as soon as we can. all right, Terry, this one is from Michael Gerba. And Michael has written us, he lives in Nairobi, Kenya.
Terry (55:27.692)
Wow.
David Campbell (55:28.273)
So here we go, he says, hey Terry, it’s Michael Gerber from Nairobi, back at it again. I tune in every week and I love the show. I wanted to share a little piece of my childhood that ties into the foul ball stories that you’ve been sharing lately. I grew up in Cleveland in the 1980s, part of your typical large Catholic family. When I was just six, my father passed away and suddenly the six of us kids had to grow up pretty fast to help my mom, but we stuck together most of the time anyway.
Terry (55:48.758)
Yeah.
Yeah
David Campbell (55:52.701)
My sister Katie was the sports fanatic in the family and she often took us to Indians games during those mid 1980s summers. Back then you could get into the bleachers for just 50 cents or a dollar. And let me tell you, those bleachers were pretty much for sunbathe, were as much for sunbathers as they were for baseball fans. It was the perfect way for a little kid to spend an afternoon. Of course, Katie might’ve had a bit more motivation to go to those games. She was dating a young guy named Bill Jankowski.
Terry (56:08.268)
Mm-hmm.
David Campbell (56:19.253)
who just so happened to run the Indian scoreboard. Bill went on to have a 35 year career in the NFL, working for the Browns and later moving to Baltimore with the team. By the time he retired in 2021 as VP of IT for the Ravens, I think he might’ve been the last Browns employee still working for the Ravens other than Ozzie Newsome.
Terry (56:22.439)
Terry (56:38.758)
Yeah. And the other was my, my close friend, from high school, Pat Moriarty from Cleveland, Benedictine, who’s their salary cap guy. think in 22, he became, like an advisor and, he’s yeah, he and Ozzy, I, I, Pat told me they’re sort of the last ones and Ozzy’s, Ozzy’s kind of an advisory world too. So, but they, know, Kevin Byrne was another one that went with them, but a lot of those people went and stayed there and.
David Campbell (56:46.878)
no kidding.
David Campbell (57:00.489)
Yeah.
Terry (57:08.456)
I remember Ozzy and some of those other guys were telling me, yeah, they didn’t want to leave Cleveland. I mean, but where are going to go? You know, this is limited. And they didn’t know. Okay, so there’s a team that comes to Cleveland three years later. Will they want me? Who knows?
David Campbell (57:16.841)
Gotta go where the job is. Yep.
David Campbell (57:24.819)
Yeah. All right. Well, Michael continues. says, Katie’s love of baseball didn’t stop there after college. She headed out to San Diego and worked for the Padres, even doing a stint with the agent for both Alomar brothers when they were coming up through the Padres system. She got my brother a personalized autographed poster of Sandy Alomar. Pretty cool stuff. But as teenagers, my younger brother and I were never all that impressed by her stories of knowing this player or that one.
Terry (57:27.854)
Mm.
Terry (57:36.575)
David Campbell (57:49.033)
Fast forward to 1993 and the three of us decided to catch an Indians day game against the Blue Jays. By then I was working as an usher at the old stadium and I had a buddy who managed the ushers. He tipped us off that some front row seats on the third base line behind the Toronto bench weren’t going to be used by the season ticket holder. So we jumped on the opportunity. As we’re watching the Blue Jays warm up, Robbie Alomar, MVP of the ALCS All-Star and the prime of his career, looks up into the stands, waves at my sister and says, hi, Katie.
Terry (58:17.602)
Hahaha
David Campbell (58:18.547)
My brother and I were floored. Robbie stopped at the steps to the dugout and chatted with my sister like they’re old pals and then headed back out to the field. But it didn’t stop there when warmups were over and the players were heading to the dugout. Robbie looks up, spots us again, and tosses me a ball. I’ve still got that ball, along with a few others, thanks to my sister. Katie continued to work in sports and advertising, even organizing the Bell-Bierga Charity Golf Tournament and working at both the Sydney and Salt Lake City Olympics.
Terry (58:42.766)
Cool.
David Campbell (58:46.643)
I have a similar story about bumping into Nadia Komenich, the Olympic gymnast, but that’s a story for another day. Anyway, I know this was a bit long, but hope you enjoyed it and can use it on the show. And again, that is from Michael Gerba and he lives in Nairobi, Kenya. So interesting tale there. Everything’s connected.
Terry (58:46.87)
Wow.
Terry (58:52.664)
Okay.
Terry (59:02.677)
Next time, Michael, you need to tell us why you live in Nairobi.
David Campbell (59:07.625)
That’s right, think he, I don’t know that he mentioned it before. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So I’m trying to think what he might’ve said before, but I can’t remember. So maybe he’ll write us again and we’ll include it on here. So, okay. Again, hit us at sports at cleveland.com. If you want to email us your thoughts, questions, we love questions and we’ll try and get them all onto the podcast. So is that it? We done? All right.
Terry (59:09.376)
No, no, no, no, let him tell us, let him tell us, no guessing.
Terry (59:32.205)
That is it.
David Campbell (59:35.177)
Well, we should have some answers about some of these teams over the next week, Terry. We’ll have plenty to talk about next week, and we hope you will join us then on the next edition of Terry’s Talkin’.
